Thread: New research article
06-22-2004, 11:24 AM #1Martha13Guest
New research article
This is an abstract of an article on some new research just published in the July issue of the Journal of Urology:
This is the abstract and for those interested in more information you will have to find the Journal. (It is worht your time to try to find it). I went to my hospital librarian and she copied the whole article for me. They treated 103 symptomatic patients with Doxycycline for a month and 71% were completely better or improved. They did not find many with bacteria (am sure they did not use a sensitive culture like broth) but treated anyway. Doxycycline is not usually useful in the typical bacteria found in broth cultures and they speculate they may be treating some harder to culture bacteria like ureaplasma, Mycoplasma or chalmydia. They treated sexual partners for 2 weeks, also.
While this is not a final answer it does raise the question of why antibiotics are so helpful for some patients. And these were long term patients over the whole age spectrum. At least those of you who are interested could bring this up with your doctors. Most have dismissed any possibility that our symptoms are related to bacteria, but no test so far has used broth culturing to identify hard to culture species and treated patients with the right antibiotics for a long enough time. The Warren study done 4 years ago treated symptomatic patients (25) with 5 different antibiotics for 3 weeks each without having any clue what bacteria they were treating. My information says 48% improved (while this above mentioned article quotes 80%+ which I think is incorrect). But Warren, et al, did not think this was "significant". I am sure if you were one of the 48% you would think it was.
And 48% is a better rate than Elmiron. Please try to encourage your doctors to look at bacteria as a possibility. We now have two labs that will do broth cultures. I keep reminding them of the stomach ulcer story.
06-22-2004, 11:37 AM #2
Thank you, Martha. Any info on the dosage per day of Doxycycline?
The reason I ask, is, I am currently taking Doxycycline for ocular rosacea, and I could just up the dosage some....
06-22-2004, 11:38 AM #3
P.S. I was just saying on these boards that I started feeling better, much less of a flare, now that I started taking 3 Doxy capsules per day instead of just 1 or 2....my flare is acting a lot like a UTI now, going away with antibiotics...
06-22-2004, 01:22 PM #4
This might be of interest...
UREAPLASMA CAN CAUSE CHRONIC URINARY TRACT INFECTIONS IN WOMEN
Gabe Mirkin, M.D.
A recent report from the Cleveland Clinic shows that as many as 50 percent of women with chronic urinary tract infections culture out a bacteria called Ureaplasma, and can be cured by taking either tetracycline or erythromycin antibiotics or both.
When you complain of burning on urination, feeling like you have to urinate all the time, getting up in the night to urinate or having urgency to urinate when your bladder is full because it hurts so much, you usually have a urinary tract infection. Doctors order a culture and often the culture grows no bacteria and your doctor tells you that you have no infection or worse, that you have interstitial cystitis.
Your doctor should know that chlamydia, mycoplasma and ureaplasma bacteria cannot be found on routine cultures and that he should believe that you have symptoms and treat you in spite of the negative culture. This study shows that many women can be cured when they and their partners take Azithromycin or doxycycline, and if that fails, a quinolone antibiotic. (Azithromycin 250 mg once day for 6 to 9 days. Doxycycline 100 mg twice a day for 21 days, or Cipro 500 mg twice day for one month.)
JM Potts, AM Ward, RR Rackley. Association of chronic urinary symptoms in women and Ureaplasma urealyticum. Urology, 2000, Vol 55, Iss 4, pp 486-489. Address: Potts JM, Cleveland Clin Fdn, Dept Urol, A100, 9500 Euclid Ave, Cleveland,OH 44195 USA
06-22-2004, 01:25 PM #5
This sounds good
This does pose a huge question. I have always I mean (95%) had the flare after sex with my husband. It just never came on me for no reason that I can remember. I remember having a horrible UTi while I was prego with #2 and it took several rounds of antibiotics to knock out and strong ones at 500 mg each. that was alot for a pregnant woman to take. I wish this was the break we all need. Wouldnt it be wonderful if this would help 48% people. With elmiron at 40 and 48 antibiotcs, we could make a dent in this. This is pretty fascinating.. Ask ICLORI, who has been in a horrible flare for 2 months, she took the antibiotic in double dose and has cut her urination in half. This gives a bit of hope..All my best,
06-22-2004, 03:23 PM #6Martha13Guest
According to the study the patients were treated with 100 mg twice daily for 2 weeks, and once daily for another 2 weeks. they also gave them vaginal tablets (hexetidine or ciclopiroxolamine) once daily for 10 days. The partner was treated with 100 mg of doxy twice daily for 2 weeks and the use of a condom was recommended during the 4 week period.
Wish I could post the whole article since I think it will be hard to find. Urologists should subscribe to the Journal and might be a good source. They should read it for sure.
We are doing research here (VA) using broth culturing and usually find Enterococcus. The researchers are also testing the same specimens with the PCR (molecular) machine and the results should be available by the end of the summer. We have found beau coup bacteria by both methods and yet every other lab says they can't find it. The agar plate has been in use for over 50 years and I would say it is time for a better method, especially for chronically symptomatic women!
We need to push for more research into a bacterial connection since there are so many similarities between IC and UTIs. The differences may be due to a different bacterial species - Gram positive vs Gram negative - which require different antibiotics. Dr. Scott Hultgren and his group at Washington U in St. Louis are doing a study right now on UTIs. I have read the grant they published online and they are also studying Enterococcus. They know Entero causes UTIs in hospitalized patients but do not know that we are finding plenty of it out in the community. It is in controls, too, so there are other factors that precipitate symptoms - probably different things for different people. B J Czarapata says in her interview on this site that she thinks IC symptoms are caused by an opportunistic bacterial infection.
Our researchers here have some other ideas about things to look at in connection with bacteria but it will take time and money. If anyone has any suggestions about funding sources please advise. Just wanted everyone to know that this article was out there and at least another group of researchers is looking at bacteria.
I have read about the ureaplasma urealyticum research at the Cleveland Clinic but it is several years old and there hasn't been anything on it lately, or has there? I know some doctors will not even treat with antibiotics, and antibiotics are not benign, but people do get better and even symptom-free. Read the success stories on icsuccessonline.com. Hope others who have had good results on antibiotics will post their stories.
I think we, and the medical/scientific community, have to be open to any feasible cause. It has been too many years of suffering not to look at every conceivable possibility. Culturing is the critical factor. Broth cultures have been around for a long time but fell out of use. They are more time-consuming and labor-intensive so the big lab corporations don't want to use them. We found small, independent labs that will do them and believe me they are not losing money. Both are near Washington, DC. The complete description of how to do broth culturing is available on the Cystitis Research Center website. It is not rocket science so good labs could easily do it.
Please if anyone has suggestions, etc., about furthering bacterial research let us know. I have set up a fund and have been pretty much supporting it myself because I was helped so much by the broth culture and antibiotics. But I could sure use help and one scientist whose main job is brain tumor research has been helping for 5 years without any compensation. She is a molecular neurobiologist and I wish we could hire her full-time. I owe her alot for being willing to help since her motivation is the patients' well-being. She is working at the Virginia Commonwealth University Medical Center in Richmond.
Wish us luck!
06-28-2004, 02:26 AM #7
I am very happy with the good news! Being on an antibiotic longterm I can't immagine going double my dose....SCARY!!!!!!!!!
I once by acident of my pharmacy took one of my antibiotics double dose and ended up thinking I may have something wrong with my Pancreas because of a blood test and a lot of pain.
Those interested be careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Take Care all.....atleast it does give hope!!!Faith, Hope, and Love,
I believe God is using me. He uses me for God. Things I gain from all my suffering are meant to help others. I hope I can help you too. Email me or start a chat if you like my help or anything. I CARE!Illnesses: IC,IBS, IBD, GERD, PFD, Epilepsy, Endo, Allergies, RLM,Rapid heart beat, low blood pressure,Gastritis,Gall stones,Tendonitis,migraines, Shingles, Prolapsed pouch,ext. fatigue (current problem) I have seen periods of remission and I have seen them end and return. At this time remission is over and working on getting it back! My hope story http://www.ic-network.com/patientstories/katrina.html
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06-28-2004, 02:33 AM #8
Thanks, Katrina, it's not as scary as it sounds, because it's only going back to the dose I started at.
With Ocular rosacea, you usually take one 100mg (I think that's what it is) capsule twice a day until the worst of the symptoms are under control. Then you see if between lots of lid washes, hot compresses etc. you can cut back to only one 100mg pill per day. Some ocular rosacea patients can even go one pill every other day but not me, I've had to keep up at least one pill per day and when symptoms sometimes come back anyways I go to the original two pills per day until symptoms subside again. All with the blessings of my ophthalmologist. So for me, doubling the dose - going back up to 2 pills per day instead of the 1 I've been using - is no big deal because it's only going back up to the original prescribed dose. It's not an overdose of any type, you understand.
With Ocular rosacea, you do generally try to get under the prescribed (two pills per day) dose if you can because long-term antibiotics aren't that good for you and so you try to use as little as you can get away with. But there are plenty of ocular rosace patients who are on the 2 pill a day dose (standard dose) for months or even all the time because that is the only way their symptoms stay under control.
The main problem with Doxycycline besides the usual problems with antibiotics (yeast etc. stomach upset) is 1) you get sunburned more easily and 2) worst of all it can cause birth defects (stained teeth) so you have to make sure not to get pregnant while on them.
Anyway if it turns out it does cure IC it's probably worth the yest infections etc. for a course of the antibiotics.
I'm doing much better, bladder symptoms gone for the time being but it is my period and they always go away for the few days of my period (but I flare horribly until my period gets started, for a few days before my period, isn't that odd?)
07-11-2004, 12:20 PM #9
This is sort of scary to me. I have always been concerned about the bacterial possibility and was asking a lot about it last year since I'm single and can't imagine how this could effect my dating/sex life but nobody else seemed concerned about it. Anyway, I was feeling better for a while and had sex with a new partner (who was willing to take antibiotics because I had been worried about this), but now I am in a terrible flareup and I'm wondering if this is a factor.
Apparently whether or not the partners took antibiotics effected the recurrence rate of the women in the study, so I don't see how it can just be attributed to an anti-inflammatory effect or something other than killing bacteria.
This disease sucks. I hate the thought that this could be contagious.
07-11-2004, 02:54 PM #10
Well, I gotta say, I'm on the Doxycycline now twice a day and I'm still in a flare...isn't doing much for me...you know I get better for a few hours and think, oh maybe the flare is over, and then it hits again.
It hits especially every late night/morning after I haven't been drinking water for a few hours - I really have to keep the urine diluted...
So I guess Doxycycline isn't the answer for me, although I hope it is for others because wouldn't it be wonderful if only this could be cured by a course of antibiotics?
07-11-2004, 04:53 PM #11
- Join Date
- Apr 2004
FYI: I was prescribed a daily dose of Bactrim when I was 1st dx'd with IC years ago. I took it for a year & 1/2 faithfully. Not only did it not help my IC, but I even acquired a few true-blue infections while on it.
07-11-2004, 05:16 PM #12
- Join Date
- Mar 2004
- Westlake Village
new research article
I actually wrote an e-mail to the researcher and they used broth cultures. What's confusing is that according to BJ Karpaza (??) the culprit is enterococcus but this study in Switzerland found ureoplasma, chlymydia and mycroplasma. They said doxycycline would not cure enterococcus.
I obtained a broth culture test kit by mail-I'm not sure if I am going to bother doing it because I have already decided to take the treatment and so has my husband.
I always feel better on antibiotics and really think there is a stealth infection in my bladder wall.Indy
07-24-2004, 08:52 AM #13
My two cents of information........
The other day I saw some posts about using alternative therapies and long-term antibiotics. This concerned me because last semester I finished a course in microbiology and pathology for nursing that, in effect, said that the high Rxing of antibiotics should be a no no due to resistance, patient complications, etc. There was also mention of H2O2 therapies in that post thread. The info. that we were taught along with lab experiments completely went against what the link from that post said. So, I decided to e-mail my professor to see what her PhD opinion was about the posts, links, and info. being discussed. I was very concerned that the info. could be misleading. I got a reply from her the next day. To my surprise, she has IC. Her symptoms were terriby bad and after a year she considered resigning from her job. She didn't want to have anymore cytoscopies or instillations because they were too invasive and painful. She then did the 6 month low-dose antibiotic therapy and has been symptom free for over a year. She said that although what we learn in theory about antibiotic drug use says no, sometimes you have but a few alternatives and that when in that kind of pain to go with what you need.
She had no idea about the H2O2 therapies, never heard of it and said that it didn't make much sense to her. So be careful about that if you are considering it, especially from a website.
That's all. I just wanted to put this out there for anyone considering antibiotic therapy. My professor is very knowledgable and someone I trust. I hope that the info. from her will help. It gave me a lot to consider.Jen
Life is a collaboration and in a collaboration, you have to be willing to admit that you may be wrong. Validation is the thread that holds the key to understanding.
03-05-2006, 08:22 PM #14
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
Thanks for sharing this information. I agree that 48% is a significant improvement. I'm sure it was significant for the 48% who felt better! How do they decide what is a 'significant' improvement anyway? How and who decides that?
03-05-2006, 10:57 PM #15
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
Maybe i am wrong to post this, however i tried the doxycycline also hoping it was honeymoon cystitus ( also used to treat that as well ) and after 3 days i was sicker than sick. Guess i had a bad reaction to it and since have been too afraid to try it again. I am thrilled for those of you who it helps. I am confused now & wonder if i should try it again just don't want to get sick. Anyone else have a bad reaction to that antibiotic?
TraceyDiagnosed w/IC 7/18/05
Dx'd w/Endo 5/5/06
Elmiron-100mg 4x's a day
Atarax-10mg's 2x's a day
Oxycontin 40mg-Only when i can't take it anymore!
Laparoscopy done, Endo lasered, Let's pray it stays away!
"If you haven't gotten all the things you want, be grateful for the things you don't have that you don't want."
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