Latest Blog Article: Europeans Release Updated Chronic Pelvic Pain Guidelines
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  1. #16
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    I too am still confused on exactly how it works and the rep that works w/ Dr. Brookoff told me that he can't really explain why it helps but it does. They are wanting to do a study on it. Somehow they are thinking it relaxes the muscles therefore decreasing pain and frequency in some cases. You can place th electrodes in different spots and you adjust the current to a comfortable level. I know what you mean about the pain if you turn it up to high. I have placed then on my lower abdomine and lower back and they said it will help the internal pain in between those two spots.

    My brochure says " Patients us IF (inferferential) blocking pain signals to the brain- to pinpoint deep pain and comfortabley deliver nearly 50 times the power of a TENS unit". Patients using the the IF 3 Wave stimulator in NMES (neuromuscular electrical stimulation) mode to prevent disuse atropy, re-educate muscles and reduce muscles spams. The If 3 Wave use PDC (pulse direct current) the equivalent of both ice and heat therapy to increase blood flow and circulation, reducing swelling and inflammation and increasing range of motion"
    It has a preset program for IC pain.
    Hope this helps
    Last edited by ICNDonna; 03-22-2008 at 10:49 AM.

    Emily

    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." James1:2

    Diagnosed with IC 3/2007
    Endometriosis w/ laproscopic surgery 2003 and 2007
    Hydro, Cysto, urodynamics testing, and many instills
    IBS 1998
    Current Medications: Elmiron (200mg morning and night), Vaginal Valium Suppository at night, IF 3 WAVE Stimulator, Cymbalta, and birth control

    "Thank you to all for your support. I have been able to live a more normal life thanks to all the information found on this site and the angles I have encountered."
    THESE ARE THE TWO LOVES OF MY LIFE!


  2. #17
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    runningemiles
    could you please explain where do you place the electrodes?

    now I can see that the two channels HAVE TO CROSS for it to work

    ["The electrical current is applied to the affected area using four electrodes. The four electrodes are placed in such a way that the two currents produced cross each other in the affected area. For example, if it is a knee injury that is being treated, the two currents can be applied so that they cross deep within the actual knee joint itself. Where the two currents meet, they actually 'interfere' with each other; hence the name 'interferential."

    my therpist was putting the 4 elctrode on the abdomen, in a way that the two lines will cross in the center (and it was giving some relief),

    when I asked her to try on front and back, she put the two pads from one channel on the front, and the pads from the second channel on the back, so there was no crossing. that was what made me confused.
    I wanted to try putting one pad from each channel on the front, and putting the two other pads on the back in the opposite way, so to make two currents that cross all the way from the front to the back and also cross each other in the middle, but she was in doubt that the currents can penetrate this deep, and I too got afraid of trying that. but I feel this way would makes more sense?

    I would really appreciate if you could describe where you place the electrodes. I don't have the device with me so I can't remember it well. I can't remember which is red and which is black, but I know there are two pads that belong to channel 1, and other 2 pads for channel 2..

    Thanks
    Ansam
    Last edited by ICNDonna; 03-22-2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Removed advertising sites.

  3. #18
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    You have it right. It doesn't matter on this one where you put the red or black. You take channel one and put one on your lower right abdomine and the other on your upper left abdomen. Then take channel two and put one (red or black) on your lower left abdomine and upper right abd. I also have put one on my lower right ab. and left lower back and then the opposite w/ channel two. THose are the two positions I have tried. So you are right about getting that crossing pattern. That is the most importan thing. I guess b/c it is 50 time stronger than a TENS it can supply the internal current. I am just experimenting w/ the different positons. I had posted a Thread trying to find someone that uses this to see what has been the best position. I have found someone and we are going to touch base. I will let you know if I found anything else out. Does this make sense?

    Emily

    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." James1:2

    Diagnosed with IC 3/2007
    Endometriosis w/ laproscopic surgery 2003 and 2007
    Hydro, Cysto, urodynamics testing, and many instills
    IBS 1998
    Current Medications: Elmiron (200mg morning and night), Vaginal Valium Suppository at night, IF 3 WAVE Stimulator, Cymbalta, and birth control

    "Thank you to all for your support. I have been able to live a more normal life thanks to all the information found on this site and the angles I have encountered."
    THESE ARE THE TWO LOVES OF MY LIFE!


  4. #19
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    Hi,
    Thanks so much for the reply.

    I will let you know how it goes. The only problem is that I don't have the device at home, so it's only when I go to my physical therapy, which is about once a week and this week I had cancelled my appt so it's not till next Wednesday.

    My therapist has been doing the first way you mentioned, all 4 on the abdomen, but she is very nice and she said she won't mind trying anything else if I find out more about it.

    It does make more sense for me, with putting pads on both front and back. Yes the therpist too was in doubt whether the current can go this deep, but seems on all these websites they're saying the advantage of the IF over the TENS is that it penetrates deeper (I think somewhere I read that with the higer frequency of IF, there is less resistance in the skin, and so current can go to deep tissue... whatever that means..).

    Even with the 4 pads on the abdomen I did get some relief, first during the session I feel the viration and it like replaces the pain and the feeling like I need to go to the bathroom, the session is usually short (10 min), and after I leave I notice I don't need to take my vicondin till 2 hours later (in other days I'd take earlier). that's my only way to compare if it's working. my other problem is the car ride makes me always worse and the therpy place is about 45 min from home, so the trip back home makes me worse again (but not as bad compared to when I go out in the car and NOT go to therapy).

    Also the therapist once told me I can buy the unit. I will ask her again about that.

    Sorry for writing this much...
    Again thanks a lot for replying. I'll let you know what I do.

    Ansam

  5. #20
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    don't know worry about writing so muc...I want to help. So she has the IF 3 Wave Stimulator w/ the IC progam. If so yes, you can purchase them b/c what i am learning is you need to have it with you to use during pain to see if it is really working. Let me know how your session goes and what you think. It took me two to three days to see if mine was working. I will keep experimenting and see if we get any other replies....

    Emily

    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." James1:2

    Diagnosed with IC 3/2007
    Endometriosis w/ laproscopic surgery 2003 and 2007
    Hydro, Cysto, urodynamics testing, and many instills
    IBS 1998
    Current Medications: Elmiron (200mg morning and night), Vaginal Valium Suppository at night, IF 3 WAVE Stimulator, Cymbalta, and birth control

    "Thank you to all for your support. I have been able to live a more normal life thanks to all the information found on this site and the angles I have encountered."
    THESE ARE THE TWO LOVES OF MY LIFE!


  6. #21
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    Hello,
    sorry I didn't write till now. My session was last week, and the therapist is booked up, plus I can go only in the evenings, so my next session is not till two more weeks, and then the following one will be 3 more weeks later.
    I know this is very little, but I've been very tired lately and I don't want to leave the house, the car ride always hurts me, and also my husband has to drive me and wait for me and he too has been tried and not feeling well.

    anyway, back to the IF: we taked about if I can try it at home. she'll ask the company she deals with if I can rent it. I think this would be great, because like what you said, I think it's better to use it when I have the bad pain. for me the pain is always worse at night and sometimes early morning.

    This last time we tried the IF with pads on front and back (crossed like how you described it), but I don't think it helped. I think when she puts all the 4 on my abdomen I used to get more rellief. But I still want to try it again. other reason also why this time it didn't work, is that the current (or whatever it's called..) may be was too weak. When I went there I'd had some colic or sharp pain for few days and was like recurring at the same spot (was not the bladder pain, I think it was almost the middle of my cycle and I think sometimes I get pain), anyhow, that one spot was already sore and I was afraid it was going to hurt more so I kept asking her to lower the current. may be that's why it didn't work..

    It seems also a problem for me to decide how much current we should use. I tend to want a higher or stronger signal, hoping that "if I push on myself, it will work better", but that was not true. if it's too high, it will make me worse.

    when we put the 4 pads on my abdomen, I usually feel the vibration along the whole two lines. this time when we did front and back, I could feel the vibration on the front, like little deep under the skin, and same on the back, just little under the skin, but I don't feel anything in the middle -middle between front and back- I was assuming I should feel it, because that's the point of having the two channels crossing in the mid way.
    anyway, I do intend on trying it again with higher signal and see if it's going to help.

    one more thing, few weeks ago we were looking into using a internal probe (I guess that would be a TENS unit, not an IF). we tried it like 2 minutes and was very uncomfortable. I think just the probe itself is big and is uncomfortable. I have tight muscles in there (internal exam hurts me, and up till few months ago, inserting a tampon would hurt me), so that's another thing we're working on. and then I can try that probe again.

    I hope you're doing better, and sorry again for not posting earlier.
    I'll keep you updated but it will be a while.

    Ansam
    Last edited by ansamnaoum; 12-28-2007 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #22
    ICN Member WENDYK's Avatar
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    Dear Ansam,
    I am`on the IF 3 wave stimulator. I have been on it for about a year now. My insurance bought the unit for me so I have it 24/7. Since beginning with Dr. Brookoff and this I have had to have three or four units. Two new battery charging devices. To many to list new leads, and then my regular alotment of three to four packs of 4-count electrodes. However I must admit I was asout one of the very first patients with it I keep the electrodes hooked up on me in the classic X presentation. I change it so that the electrode I wear on my left abomen goes on my right buttocks, and the electrode I wear on my right abdomen I attach to my left buttock the I wear the electrodes usually nonstop so that when I need to I can just hook up the machine. I run it approximately 4 full sessions a day and a large number of partial sessions. The incomplete sessions come from needing to fix the electrodes ( if there is any wire not in a sheath or exposed you can and I very often do get an electrical zap from it) the machine stops for no reason, or because I moved wrong and it has to reset itself. Having said all of that I have had IC probably since childhood,(and I'm 44) but I have been formally diagnosed for about 11 years now. I consider this machine to be right up there with sliced bread as the greatest invention in mankind. I don't really love the 5 or so minutes when the two settings overlap and switch, but even with that. This device, Dr. Brookoff and EMPI its manufacurer are just wonderful. I love owning mine because it allows`me to move the electrodes to the area that hurts the most, and some combinations are better than others. But stick with this machine and all its complexities it is more than`worth it.Also all people are different but i run my level at around 50. I also look forward to seeing some of my damage undneath. Sorry I ran on but I havn't seen much on this great item out there, and I wish everyone could get them unfortunately thry aren.t cheap, nor perfected yet. any questions from amyone on these great things private message me, and I'll try to help. Or my e-mail is lil1miner@aol.com

    Hope this helps,

    Thanks Wendy
    Last edited by WENDYK; 12-29-2007 at 05:31 PM.
    ALL THAT IS GOLD DOES NOT GLITTER, NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST.J.R.R. TOLKIEN

  8. #23
    ICN Member gigisgirl's Avatar
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    My pain doc gave me a written order today for an IF 8000. I have insurance but anyone know how much this is going to cost me to get and is it worth the money?
    IC found on hydro 2/2004, total hysterectomy, rectocele and vaginal wall reconstruction 2/2004.
    I have had previous Heparin instills that worked great.
    8/2007 Pain, urgen/freq returned.
    Since then I have had weeks and weeks of instills,
    PFD diagnosed 02/2008 finally


    IC
    PFD
    IBS
    Anxiety

    MEDS:
    Fentanyl patch, Hydroxyzine, Klonopin, Tizandine, Climara patch

  9. #24
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    Mine is an IF 3 Wave Stimulator and they run around $3000 however if insurance doesn't cover they usually give you a cut for around $1200

    Emily

    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." James1:2

    Diagnosed with IC 3/2007
    Endometriosis w/ laproscopic surgery 2003 and 2007
    Hydro, Cysto, urodynamics testing, and many instills
    IBS 1998
    Current Medications: Elmiron (200mg morning and night), Vaginal Valium Suppository at night, IF 3 WAVE Stimulator, Cymbalta, and birth control

    "Thank you to all for your support. I have been able to live a more normal life thanks to all the information found on this site and the angles I have encountered."
    THESE ARE THE TWO LOVES OF MY LIFE!


  10. #25
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    Hi,
    Thanks for all the answers. Sorry I haven't been here all this time but I thought I was going to get an e-mail when someone writes here, so I didn't check all this time.

    I wrote to Dr. Brookoff and he told me too about the IF3 from EMPI and he described all what you said here, that they'd meet me in the doctor's office and let me try it for free for while.
    I called them, the rep I talked to told me the unit's price is about $3000, and it's NOT covered by our insurance. If you pay yourself they'd lower the price to $1900. She didn't say anything about a free trial, and it would cost me $200 to rent for a month. And she she said she would "try" to find someone who could explain to me how to use it, they might meet in the doctors but more likely they'll just talk to me on the phone..

    All this wasn't good. If I knew for sure this unit will make big difference in the pain I would pay for it but I haven't tried it. Even the $200 per month seems too much now, you can imagine I don't work now and my husband has health problems too, and we pay MANY copays for appointments and visits, not to mention all the OTC medicines and all the trials of the homepathic/herbal things I used..

    Anyway, good news, two days ago I went to my PT, and I was very sad and told her about all this, and can you believe it.. she gave me the unit they have there for me to try it at home for few weeks.
    Usually when I go there (and I can't go often, it's like once in every 2 weeks), she uses a big unit she brings on a cart, with 4 pads. We tried different ways with it. But they also have another smaller device, she told me I can buy it for $150, but all this time we wanted to try it there before deciding about buying it.
    The unit I have here is called EMSI-4250 and today I've been reading online to understand more about all this. EMSI is of course the company and this is their IF unit. It's an analogue (like with knobs and little switches), not digital.

    I'm trying to get the same settings as the IF3 from Empi...

    what I understood (and I hope I'm not wrong):
    The old TENS units give a direct wave, at a frequency in a range of 2-160 Hz (pulse per second) (or may be more, I'm not sure of exact numbers), and the wave or the current will just be applied to the skin and it will of course reach some under the skin.

    They say the IF units uses much higher frequency and it works in different way:
    There are two waves (or they're calling them channels, and there are 2 electodes for each channel).
    one channel gives a wave at 4000 Hz
    the other channel gives a wave at a range of 4001- 4400
    so when one wave is at 4000, and the other at for example, 4250, they meet each other in the middle and at middle point they cancel each other and produce a new wave with a frequency of 250 Hz (the difference betweet the original two). the advantage of this, because you put two pad on your lower abdomen and two on your back, the middle point in somewhere closer to the bladder or the deep tissue, so the new wave of 250 Hz will be generated just there, where you need it to work, while in the TENS units you're applying this 250 Hz wave on the skin and expecting in to reach your bladder (that's why they also make TENS units with internal probes- that's just another way of trying to make the wave reach deeper inside).

    I hope this helps someone.

    I'll be trying this unit and let you know what happens

    Thank you all for being here and for this wonderful network.
    Love
    Ansam
    Last edited by ICNDonna; 03-22-2008 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Removed advertisingsite.

  11. #26
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    This was very interesting information. Thank you for sharing. Hope you are having good luck w/ it. Let me knwo how it goes.

    Emily

    "Consider it pure joy, my brothers when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perserverance." James1:2

    Diagnosed with IC 3/2007
    Endometriosis w/ laproscopic surgery 2003 and 2007
    Hydro, Cysto, urodynamics testing, and many instills
    IBS 1998
    Current Medications: Elmiron (200mg morning and night), Vaginal Valium Suppository at night, IF 3 WAVE Stimulator, Cymbalta, and birth control

    "Thank you to all for your support. I have been able to live a more normal life thanks to all the information found on this site and the angles I have encountered."
    THESE ARE THE TWO LOVES OF MY LIFE!


  12. #27
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    the update here:

    Hello,

    Now I've had the IF3 wave from EMPI for about a month but I don't think it's helping much. I've tried different ways (change position of pads, change settings). I talked to the company rep and I'm trying their suggestions. Still when I have it on it doesn't help with the pain (sometimes it's even more uncomfortable to have it), but I'll still try to see if regular daily use is going to make the pain better.

    When I talked to the EMPI people they said it's not on their contract with our insurance, but said they'd try to submit it under misc.
    If they don't pay for it, I thinl we'll just pay the rent for the last months and this second month.

    Reason I'm keeping it this second month is I'm going to see Dr. Brookoff in about 10 days from now. (we live in a different State so it's going to be a trip). I know he uses and he recommends the IF unit from EMPI, and was hoping he'd figure out why is it not working with me.

    After that, if I'm still not getting much relief, I don't think we can rent it any longer.

    Rae:
    Yes I agree it's VERY expensive but I don't feel I have options.
    I think the problem here is finding a doctor that cares to try helping you. I've already seen 3 pain doctors here in Pittsburgh and they were very unhelpful.
    The Physical therapist here is very helpful and she's already tried several things with me. I think I do get a little relief from the unit she uses there (big one she brings on a cart), but I can't go there so often. She even let me take one unit with me home (the IF4250 from EMSI) but I was trying it for one or two weeks without success either.

    Also it's hard to find info about any of this online. You can find several sites selling IF units but they only tell you the features of their unit, nothing as to how to use it and what it means for the type of pain you have. They just write "and your doctor will tell you how to use it".

    You can e-mail me (or post or PM) with any questions you have.
    I'll look up the links you posted (thanks) but it will take me sometime because I'm constantly very tired. I'm not feeling so excited now myself about all this because it hasn't been helping me, but may be it can help someone else with IC.

    not feeling good,
    Ansam

  13. #28
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    Ansam,
    Hi there! It is nice to hear from you as I am also a patient of Dr. Brookoff as well as an expert on the IF3 Wave. I have been in close contact with the Executive offices of the Company that makes the IF3 Wave and have extensive knowledge of how to use it. This is an excellent machine!

    The IF3 Wave changed my life so I contacted the company to work with them on helping get the word out about the unit. The reason that haven't been able to offer more support is the company was purchased last year. They are actively working toward getting their customer support back on track.

    This is a short term problem. Please hang in there! You are welcome to PM for my email address and/or phone number as I have helped over 20 people use this unit properly and they love it now. Runningmiles was one of those people and can attest to that.

    Thank you Rae for your information. However, I have to respectively disagree with you. However, I am very open minded and will go to your websites and throughly read the information and get back with a post to this site.

    BBB
    BBB - Diagnosed with Moderate/Severe IC (age 12), Severe PFD and V V (age 21), IBS (from birth) & Gastroparesis (age 42)

  14. #29
    ICN Member Grammy's Avatar
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    Cheaper Unit

    You can go on line and find interferential units for a lot less money--somewhere in the area of 300.00 but I wonder if these just are not of a good quality. This thread said that the Empi would cost around 3000.00 and that is a big difference for sure. For those of you who use this could you please tell me if you have found a unit that works really well but is not as expensive. I feel that if I were able to wear this and it would work as well if not better than some sort of internal stim it would be a blessing for sure. I would be using it for vaginal pain from severe pfd so I was thinking about the pad placement. I wondered if you could have one of each color on the front and one of each color on the back and perhaps the wires could cross outside your panties in between your legs. I would be trying to stop vaginal burning so I guess I would need to play around with the leads to see what worked. If anyone has a unit that is not an Empi would you please let me know.

  15. #30
    ICN Member WENDYK's Avatar
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    Dear Ansam,

    I have written before about the IF 3 Wave Stimulator by EMPI, and I still swear by it, I know that they are expensive, but I feel worth it. I haven't had to go to Physical Therapy for over a year now, which used to cost $40.00 a time and was limited to 20 a year. I would also have to have the same corrections done each time I went in and they were uncomfortable. So it was great not to have to go anymore. I did go about a month ago to see about the condition of my pelvic floor muscles, and my PT told me, my muscles have never looked better, and that everything had stayed aligned. Which is amazing, since it has been a year since I went, and I was misaligned almost every time before and I went in every week or two weeks. As far as placement the X has always been the most affective for me. I keep it straight by using one color duct tape to reinforce where the wire attaches to the pad, and a different color for the other. Also experimentation with placement is necessary as everyone hurts some place different. I also hurt in different places from day to day, sometimes even hour to hour. I have had my unit for 1 1/2 years, and have had it repaired 5 or 6 times. Each time I got a new unit in 2 days and it didn't cost anything, EMPI is aware that we are not using the stimulators the same way they were designed for. I keep my pads and wires on all day. I use a fanny pack, so I can use it right when the pain is worst, and I don't have to fiddle with it all the time. I would worry about a cheaper unit, and how well it would hold up. I would also worry about their replacement policy. I also feel better knowing it was Dr. Brookoff who wrote the program. You might not know about the other program, and how affective it is. However, if you have used the unit for awhile and you are truly not getting relief. Than it doesn't make sense to buy or use this unit or any other one no matter how expensive they are. One other note after using mine for a`while I don't always feel the program running the whole time. I think that you get used to it running and you don't always feel the stimulation. However I feel that you are still getting the benefits from the stimulator even if you don't feel it. Sometimes I just feel the absence of pain while its running. If you have any other questions or I can help you can P.M. me, and I will give you my E-mail address.

    Hope this helps,

    Wendy
    ALL THAT IS GOLD DOES NOT GLITTER, NOT ALL WHO WANDER ARE LOST.J.R.R. TOLKIEN

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