Low Histamine Diet?

[Hypnogal]

If taking an anti-histamine helps IC, why not eat a low histamine diet?
It is about 98% the same as the IC diet.
If are we already doing this - why is no one discussing it?
Histamine is a strong irritant throughout the body - and can effect every system.
Might histamine be more of a culprit then we give it credit?

http://www.urticaria.thunderworksinc.com/pages/lowhistamine.htm#foodsource

[SharonA]

Please be careful if you are thinking of going by the food list offered here. There are several items that can cause IC Patients some bladder problems. Make sure you compare the IC Diet Food List with this list before eating from this list.

[Hypnogal]

Like I said, the lists are almost the same. I will stick to the IC diet as I have been - but there is a histamine component...so does histamine in foods matter or no?

Anyone try testing that?

[leelee88]

I cant answer that for you. But I do find this interesting.

[karen10]

It seems to make sense to me. I do think diet plays a much bigger role in any chronic condition than we give it credit for. More doctors are saying this as well. Did you know the three top "killers" in America - heart disease, diabetes, and cancer all have links to diet?? I have been doing a lot of reading on diet in general (actually enrolled in nutrition course) and it's amazing what they have found consistently what certain things do to your body. I also noticed that many of the histamine foods were also highly acidic. Very interesting!

[Hypnogal]

Histamine is an irritant to the body and the body naturally tries to lower it by releasing - adrenaline. THIS is why (I think) that so many of us are easily "startled" - we have alot of adrenaline in our bodies. Histamine comes from the body's reaction to foods, stress, hormones, dehydration & from some foods (some contain histamine and some elicit histamine response in the body).

The body makes histamine in response to:

1. a reaction to an allergen that the body thinks is a foriegn invader a
2. a reaction to eating foods high in histamine.
3. even mild dehydration
4 during any kind of physical/emotional stress
5. during hormone fluctuations

WHY would any of this matter to the bladder?

Well, WHAT in the body holds and releases the histamine it makes in reaction to these substances?

You got it - MAST CELLS do.

THIS is why anti-histamines help people with IC (and allergies).

Is your IC caused by too much histamine production in your body - from an allergen or from foods, are you dehydrated (even a little - did you know that if you are thristy you are already extremely dehydrated)?

Now you know what to do - right? Get allergy tested. You might have allergy to foods or to the environment. Try a low histamine diet (minus the foods that we KNOW irritate the bladder from that list). And most of all stay very hydrated - drink mostly plain water - gee does this surprise anyone?). Avoid stress and know your hormone "situation"...normal or not?

More evidence - people who are on a low carb diet / are on a high protien diet (usually). Guess what they have to be concerned about. HIGH BODY ACIDITY. They are eating primarily protein and are somewhat in a state of even MILD dehydration. This encourages the body to produce histamine. Histamine encourages the body to release adrenaline and increased adrenaline results in you guessed it - increased acidity in the body - which can be evidenced in the urine (ever heard of ketoACIDosis? This acidity is actually tested for by low carbers from what? Their urine. Many low carbers are concerned about body PH. And this is why. I know, I used to be one and boy was my bladder (mood and energy) bad way back then. I was too acidic, too much histamine...had some very busy mast cells and high adrenaline/was slightly dehydrated - I was in ketoacidosis and losing weight (mostly water). Not good.

So that is why a more alkaline diet (as some have discussed here) plus a low histamine - or IC diet - plus high water intake and finding out and treating for environmental and food allergens, decreasing stress too and balancing hormones has been very helpful for so so many of us.

How did I get so much insight overnight? Well, actuallly its taken years of reading, talking to four dietitians, two allergists, two internists, 3 gastroenterologist and 2 urologists pluse my own 10 years of personal experience. I try to get to the facts of WHY things are the way they are / make sense out of the interactions between them - so we can act intelligently out of what we KNOW. This is so much better than guessing and hurting. Right?

Feel free to agree or disagree of course. Or just take those allergy shots, antihistamine, clean up the diet if needed and drink more water.

Decrease stress
Balance hormones
Find out if you have any allergies (a get shots or take antihistamines)
Stay well hydrated
Avoid foods that irritate bladder and/or increase histamine

This is long and comes from alot of years of trying. Nobody made any money telling me this and I won't telling it. Its just common sense. If we could only put "it all" into a computer and have it "spit out" an answer - I doubt this would be far from the truth.

The irritated bladder itself (my own personal best GUESS) is most likely simply a consequence of many of the above factors that increased histamine for a long period of time until the damage is advanced and noted by a urologist...and called IC for lack of any known etiology and evidenced by tests for hunner's ulcers or particular damage within/sensitivites (potassium for example).

I do not believe that IC is a permanent condition (that doesn't mean I'm right) / but ALL body tissue damage heals - except for spinal cord damage and scarring/adhesions (but those can soften-change over time)...but it just takes a really long time because nerves and mucosa improve very very slowly. This is why taking substances that help heal the mucosa of the bladder are indeed a step in the right direction - a step in the healing process. Many people with IC do become less diet sensitive over time / some do not, but this may be because other factors allergies, stress, hormonal situations continue and this can / might extend the time the bladder is continually challenged/irritated - prolonging pain - delaying any healing. It was once asked here if an occaisional flare further harms the bladder. I (now this is just me), I believe it might, or at minimim delay healing. Think of a wound. A scab. If you keep picking at it, will it heal?

And with any mucosal irritation - for any reason comes damage. Mucosal damage and within that, nerve damage. Nerve damage causes retention (why so many of us have voiding "issues" and therefore frequent uti's - which only irritate the bladder even more).

Did you know that the nerves of the bladder are shared by the bowel and this accounts for so much of the pelvic floor and defecation / digestion issues we read about on these boards. Even vulvodynia and IBS is involved because the bladder nerves originate out of the T3 and T4 area of the spinal cord and the signals from these nerves also effect these other areas of the body. That's why the interstim implant can help downregulate these particular nerves for some people, decreasing certain levels of pain (for some people).

I know that most women find that a multi-disciplinary approach that addresses allergy, diet/hydration, hormone and stress is more effective.

You have a better answer? To my knowledge no one does yet. so I keep my eyes open for more information all the time.

Its just not as simple as eat this or eat that is it?

I hope alot of people read this.

I hope it stirs thought.

I hope this helps one person.

Take care.

[futurehope]

I have no doubt you're onto something.

But I was confused about you stating that histamine has only 1 source - the body, and then saying that FOODS have histamine and can cause our bodies to produce more. So foods can be a source of histamine as well as the body, right?

How are you doing symptom-wise?

The most frustrating experience I've had is I was really doing quite well, taking supplements, feeling great, and all of a sudden, my bladder went into total rebellion. I love my supplements because they help me feel much better, but my bladder hates them. I find this frustrating.

Thanks for sharing what you've found helps. All of us could use as much knowledge as possible. BTW, I do NOT test positive when the allergest tested me for wheat, eggs, milk and I forget what else. But I strongly suspect there's more to it. I think our bodies could be reacting, but the current "allergy" testing does not pick it up. It may be a delayed reaction or a reaction to a by-product of the digested food. What do you think?

Footnote: We could do everything right, and have our bladders heal themselves, then go about eating normally (because our bladders do not hurt) and then irritate the lining a second time because we went back to eating something our bodies react to. This is all so very difficult. If we only knew on a cellular level what certain foods do to us, we could permanently avoid them. Oh well.

[Hypnogal]

Okay - I am still learning here (too) and I did make a mistake. So - now my original post stands corrected - thank you for helping me learn even more.

So - I've read more and learned that yes, there is histamine IN foods and also foods that elicit a histamine response in the body. Here is my source of info, and more detail is below.

Dietary Management of Food Allergies & Intolerances: A Comprehensive Guide, by Janice Vickerstoff Joneja. 1998. J. A. Hall Publications.


"Histamine occurs in food as a result of microbial enzymes converting the amino acid histidine (present in all proteins) to histamine. All foods subjected to microbial fermentation in the manufacturing process contain histamine. Included in this category are cheeses, fermented soy products, other fermented foods (e.g. sauerkraut), alcoholic beverages, and vinegars.

Foods exposed to microbial contamination also contain histamine in levels determined by the extent and rate of action of the microbes. Histamine levels reach a reactive level long before any signs of spoilage occur in the food. This characteristic has important implications in fin fish, where bacteria in the gut are particularly active in converting histidine to histamine. The longer the fish remains ungutted, the higher the levels of histamine in the flesh.

Some foods such as eggplant and spinach contain high levels of histamine naturally. In addition, a number of food additives such as azo dyes and preservatives mediate the release of histamine.

Some of these chemicals such as benzoates occur naturally in foods, especially fruits, and may have the same effect as the food additive in releasing histamine.

The histamine restricted diet excludes all foods known to contain high levels of histamine or to contain chemicals that can promote the physiological release of histamine."

----------------------

So! I finally find out why (after 42 years), eggplant gives me terrible hives.
My allergist tells me I have no food allergies. Guess what.
He didn't test me for eggplant.

[momtoSM]

This is all so interesting to me. I was just diagnosed with IC in Oct. My symptoms returned on a day that I drank 2 cups of coffee (I did this every morning for about 6 months) and it was a very high stress day! The coffee ofteb helped with bowel movements in the morning which I liked Dehydration, stress, and then there is the Histamine thing.

When I first had these bladder symptoms in 2003 it took 6 months of trying meds that didn't work before I had the cystoscopy and distention. A month after the cystoscopy my symptoms went away for 3 1/2 years. During the time when I first had symptoms I also asked the Dr. about the possibility I might have Dermagraphism. My skin is sensative to touch and pressure. With pressure applied, just crossing my legs sometimes, it will form a hive. It gets hot, a little puffy, and itches. It goes away within 10-15 minutes or so, but I get this daily. The Dr. checked my blood and said my Histamine levels were borderline high.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts on this.

Erika

[Hypnogal]

BUT -

Please go to an allergist and be tested (prick test) a complete panel for allergies. What you are describing (could be) hives...especially if they are raised welts that itch and come and then go in response to contact, heat, pressure, scratching. Any irritation to the skin MAY elicit a histamine response - an injury always does - but this does not surprise us does it since we experience pain (or burning/itching as in VV) perhaps as a result of high histamine levels.

If you do have allergies - chemical, food or environment - wow, at least now you will know and can make good choices as far as diet, treatment (shots or meds) and start feeling better.

I myself do not think that allergies are the sole cause of all our problems, but they do encourage histamine response which comes from mast cells (these cells are in the skin, bladder, gastrointestinal tract and the central nervous system) and theat can make all
"body MIS-functions" more difficult/prolonged/painful.

The hard part is most of us are busy running off to the urologist. And the urologist treats the bladder. The urologist uses antihistamines to help the bladder - but why is the bladder active with so much histamine in the first place?

Let your allergist figure that one out - then perhaps you are getting closer to the source of the problem - instead of simply masking or lessening the frequency, pain or like you have "hive-like" mystery ailments...that are most likely consequences of and not causes of what is really causing the high histamine in the first place.

Now - say the allergist says no, you have no allergies. No problem. Allergies are not the only thing that raises histamine in the body. Remember the hormones, stress and dehydration?

Right, some of the things we use to "help" evacuation actually do not help our overall situation. For example, if you are constipated and drink coffee for the caffeine to uh, get "things moving", well now you see that you are beginning a cycle of dehydration - and without adequate water, fiber, exercise - maybe even more constipation...which leads to stress / hence more histamine, more feeling crummy so we reach for more and more that helps in the moment (chocolate, coffee - even IC no no foods and stress out) - you see the cycle?

Discover YOUR cycle of pain. Give yourself the gift of that allergy test.
I did. And now I know...what to avoid at least that makes my symptoms much worse. I drink ONLY water and lots of and eat the IC/low histamine(too) diet. I reduce stress and exercise moderately daily. Am I perfect?
NO way! I goof! I hurt and I have fear and hesitations like anyone else (for example have you seen my recent embarassing post on trying to eat 3 blueberries?!).

Thanks for asking my thoughts. I am not a doctor. I am not saying you have this or have that or should take this medication or not take that supplement or anything like that. What I am doing is encouraging you to explore possibilities for yourself.

Because you never know - until you know, you know? :pray:

----
Oh and just in case you think I'm being a little bit of a know it all? (That's okay)
Well, you can read most of this for yourself. Right here.

http://www.answers.com/topic/histamine?cat=health

[Krisi]

Hypnogal,

Do you know which foods they test for the on the food skin test? My ENT which is also an allergist wanted me to have the food test done. They didn't really tell me what was on it. I know your wheat milk tree nuts soy corn is on it but I was wondering about more of the other foods. I was also wonder if the skin test would show that much or not since I know some gastro stuff won't show up on that type of test generally, so it makes me wonder about the bladder. Any insight would be nice. Btw the food skin test is supposed to be on my forearm so i know that limits the number of things they test for.

Thanks,
Krisi

[Hypnogal]

Tell tell doctor that you have no idea what you are allergic to. Don't walk in saying - "Doc, I think I'm allergic to corn and eggs" - so the doc tests for ONLY corn/eggs. You might come up not allergic and sent on your way - only years later to find out you are very very allergic to cats, milk and wheat! We cannot diagnose ourselves and you'll probably be surprised at what you are allergic to. And you can find out HOW allergic also from the skin test - reactions are rated by "the wheal" (or size of skin reaction) as allergic if the wheal is size 2-4++++++. Request a complete environmental & food test panel. And a RAST test if they will do one to tell you how allergic you are to any particular food if you are indeed allergic.

Pay attention - to the mast cell connection. There are mast cells in the bladder (too) as well as throughout the body. Any increase histamine will effect whatever organ/nerves-funtioning wherever mast cells release histamine.

If you come up not allergic, this is not a dead end. Many people have food intolerances
which are not allergies and in that case, a simple elimination diet/diary could help you very much. You might even have chemical sensitivities that are not tested for. Again, this will be up to you to figure out via elimination diet.

In any case it alway makes for better health in general to cut saturated-trans-hydrog fat, caffeine, alcohol, sugar and any junk/processed foods. You can help yourself today by making these changes. Exercise daly regularly and do whatever make you most happy to lower stress/avoid escalating stress or stressful situations. Drink plenty of water and get sufficient sleep every night. The buddist are right - a good life is about simplifiying...not complicating. Back to basics is a good place to start.

------------------------------
On a more personal note. My histamine is already high (I am a type I 4++++++ allergic - to dustmites, dogs/cats - so anything I can do to lower my histamine levels is very very a positive thing). Antihistamines aren't for me - cannot tolerate the side effects - but these are improving too all the time.

And don't despair. A vacine for allergies is on the horizon. Scientists have already significantly improved ragweed allergy in rats (how they found the rats who happened to be allergic to ragweed I don't know) by injecting only a short series of shots. So stay tuned...I predict ICr's **whose IC is due to allergy** will be running to their allergist and getting relief from their IC with these promising treatments sometime within the next 5 years...or less. Here's the latest article: http://www.mountauburn.caregroup.org/body.cfm?xyzpdqabc=0&id=6&action=detail&aeproductid=HealthvisionArticles&aearticleid=allergies/nov07acMain

--BUT Hey - what are you doing sitting there reading this for?
Go get tested already! :)

[Want2BPainFree]

I've had the allergy patch test. The allergist performed this on my back. As I recall he only tested foods he could buy in their purest form. Mostly baby foods.

I know he tested soy, milk, eggs, wheat, carrots, corn, peas, chicken, beef, pork, bananas, apples, pears, and some more, but I cannot remember.

I turned up negative on all, but am very IC diet sensitive.

So, I'm not sure this test is good for sensitivities inside the body, but maybe only good for true allergies and skin sensitivity.

[Hypnogal]

No one knows the answer yet - but I think that some people have IC and no allergies, and some people have IC and allergies and those allergies can only make IC worse (mast cells release histamine/histamine is an irritant - interferes with functioning/causes discomfort-pain.

I'm still reading, living & learning myself.
Thanks for reading my posts - I hope we all continue to learn together.

One day we will know the truth. And we'll all be stupified and amazed at how OBVIOUS it all was! How COULD we have possibly missed it! But until then, let's keep talking and helping eachother. Peace.

[Krisi]

I mentioned I had IC and he just said they could do a food prick skin test. He didn't mention the others. I know I am allergic to other things ... because if weeds touch my skin I break out but I didn't mention anything so I doubt they will test for that as well. I guess I will just let them do the food one. If they want to do the other one later I guess they can do it then. I just mentioned it when I was in there office for my ears. I also didn't mention any particular foods. I was just afraid they would only test for like wheat nuts milk soy and corn.... I want like lemons and some other foods.

Thanks,
Kristin

[Hypnogal]

Well, let us know how it goes. Did you know that any allergic reaction / from any source of allergen releases histamine throughout the entire body - and can effect your bladder too? Histamine is systemic. You might see the rash on your leg, but histamine is also being released from mast cells all over body at the time. Maybe not enough to effect your bladder - or maybe it doesn't effect your bladder immediately.

Have the food test done. But I think a complete allergy panel would be a good idea/I AM NOT A DOCTOR I'm just wishing you the best and most complete answer. Inhaled smoke irritates the bladder - it is not an allergy - but can be an allergic "trigger". I hope your allergist explains this and more. I hope he/she answers your questions.

But more than that I hope you ask them. Good luck!

[futurehope]

Two thoughts:

I've begun taking my 25mg atarax with my meals to "head off" mast cell activation if possible. But.....the antihistamine dries me out, creates dehydration, if you will. According to you, that's a trigger for adrenaline and/or histamine release. Uh, oh. Helps one thing, hurts another?!

I talked to my allergest many times about testing for foods, and back then the skin pricks came out negative. What kind of food allergy tests did you have? What is the panel called? I think I have delayed reactions.

Comment please. Thanks.

[ICNDonna]

If you suspect you might have food/medication allergies, by all means discuss this with your physician. Your physician has been trained to diagnose and will order testing if your symptoms sound like allergic reactions.

Donna

[Hypnogal]

You will never solve your own health problems by learning the specifics of mine. We are two different people. Perhaps you should start with your internist and tell all your concerns there. What I have proposed is theoretical - any decision for you to try anything is your decision - but yes, it is a must that you follow the direction of your phisician. Your health is too important to "guess" about.

-- I was tested for 25 different food/environmental allergens. I do not know what they all were.

Before changing your prescribed medications, please consult the doctor who prescribed them. I agree, antihistamines are too drying for me too - and I have a special colon condition (sigmoid colon) and cannot tolerate any amount of constipation. If you feel dehydrated, take in more water (that is harmless) and consult your doctor or your allergist as to any changes in your medication.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.