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jen74
06-27-2007, 08:45 AM
Hi ladies.
I bought a book about IC and UTI's, it is by Angela Kilmartin. I bought it because it tells how to prevent UTI's. This women said she was plagued by constant UTI's and said she learned how to prevent them by doing bottle washing after having a bowel movement.
I always would wash with soap and water after I have a BM anyways, but she said that the only way to do it is through bottle washing. SHe said that after you use the washroom, you lather your hand with soap and then lather your behind with it and sit down on the toilet and use 2 500ml bottles filled with warm water to pour over the labia and this will rinse away any bacteria and prevent a UTI.
Has anyone else ever done this? This lady claims it is the only way to effectively clean the area to prevent a UTI.
I was just curious if any of you have done this and is it beneficial?
Jen

verdicries
07-02-2007, 03:12 AM
jen,
that seems a bit extreme...but i am anal retentive and slightly ocd (yikes) so after every bm i use my squeeze bottle to clean off very well. it seems to help a LOT (and just makes me feel better!).

SandyRN
07-02-2007, 08:13 AM
I don't think you need to go so far as to lather up every time you have a BM...but, if you are having increased UTI's getting a peri-bottle and rinsing with plain water from front to back, then wipe front to back should be sufficient to clean yourself.

Just having a BM is not going to give someone a UTI...it's wiping backwards, from back to front, or dragging those bacteria up where they're not supposed to be that cause the UTI.

When I worked on the postpartum floor we always gave the new moms peri-bottles to rinse with to wash the area after using the bathroom...but we never had them lather up.

JMHO

Katrina
07-02-2007, 05:33 PM
I haven't tried that....but because my stools are always somewhat loose...and seem to come out explosively I can understand why someone would go to that extreme if needed since I know front to back wasn't enough for me at one point. Now always on antibiotic so the problem isn't UTI's. I do recall doctor's giving me those clean wipes for this reason though.

sandymarie
07-03-2007, 04:06 AM
If you read my other post you will find I have went there, done that. Don't do everything that you read. I speak from experience but the protocol given will make you sick as H.... Words from my gp and from doing the antibiotic protocol. I know. It almost killed me. I do use a spray bottle to clean after i go to the bathroom, it does make you feels better as far as the cool water. I don't want to burst your bubble, but When you are desperate you will try anything. I still have ic.

J.J. Hope you feel better.

jen74
07-06-2007, 06:50 AM
Thanks ladies for the replies.
I guess I have become a bit obsessive when it comes to being clean down there, especially after having a BM, since I have been getting UTI's more frequently and have no clue why. My hubby and I dont even have sex, so that is not the culprit. I am very clean, or as clean as a person could possibly be, so I just do not know why I get these infections.
I do notice that after I get my period, I feel like that is when the infections come on. I wonder if just having your period could cause bacteria to travel up the urethra and cause an infection. They also say having hemmroids could predispose a person to getting UTI's. Who knows really though.
Anyhow, thanks for the info, I appreciate it.
Jen

SandyRN
07-06-2007, 06:57 AM
Jen, do you use tampons or pads? I think you might be onto something with regards to your period. Just think about it...if you insert a "clean" tampon applicator up there, theres no guarantee that there aren't bacteria on them. They're clean, not sterile. If you use pads then menstrual flow is sitting right there, even with the best pads out there, and your urethra is in constant contact with it.

Sure seems like we can't win for losing sometimes!

jen74
07-06-2007, 07:25 AM
Hi Sandy.
I use pads. I even change them every couple hours or sometimes even sooner. I do not let them get full. I do notice that my UTI's usually start about 5 to 12 days after my period starts though. Last time I had a UTI, it happened about 14 days after the start of my period. I have had my period now for 5 days and already I am getting that feeling again.
I have no clue what I would do about it though, except for take BC pills and I am leary of that since I have so many sensitivities when it comes to taking meds. I also dont like the thought of messing with my hormones. There are alot of women who's IC came after being on the pill, so I am a little nervous about that.
I also cant be getting infections every month either though. I am allergic to almost all antibitoics too, especailly the ones that treat UTI's, and there are not many that do besides macodantin,cipro,bactrim and such. I am allergic to ampicillin, erythromycin, and macrodantin makes my stomach stop working and I get severe constipation, I use to do well with cipro, but last month when I took it, I got these weird itchy prickly feelings all over and stopped it. My allergist said that that is not really an allergic reaction,and that I should try it again if I have to. But I dont know. I also got this reaction from bactrim. It is weird.
I have no clue what I will do if I get another infection or what anti-B I can take.
This is really frustrating, you are right about that. Thanks for replying.
Jen

SandyRN
07-06-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm on my way to bed but wanted to answer this real quick before the Ambien kicks in! LOL Have you thought about depo provera? It can actually stop your periods all together and many women don't have the same side effects, or as severe side effects as they do on the pill. It's just a thought...a real nice one really....the thought of NO period without having to go through menopause sounds MARVELOUS to me. I don't know what the stats are on women using depo that have IC but you could talk to your doctor about it since there seems to be such a definintive correlation between your periods and your UTI's.

Hope this helps...wish I had a better answer for you. I was thinking, even if you do change your pads frequently, there is still a chance of the cells/bacteria taking a running leap off your pad and into your urethra. Who knows....I wish I did because we'd all be cured and I'd be rich! :)

jen74
07-08-2007, 04:28 AM
Hi Sandy.
Thanks for the info. I have heard of depo provera. My gyne mentioned me going on lupron, but that I am not so enthusiastic to do after reading up on the side effects. I was thinking about going on BC pills, my uogyne wanted me to, but I am so afraid of all the side effects, which I always seem to get.
I am also afraid of it making my IC and my stomach and bowel motility worse as I have heard that BC pills can mess up the tum and the bladder.
I will ask my gyne about the depo provera. I am feeling so awful right now with my bladder. I had to drop off a urine sample yesterday and my uro wanted the first morning pee and a cathed specimin. Well I did the cath yesterday morning, I used the lofric cath for the first time, and WOW did that hurt like hell!! I thought lofirc was suppose to be less painful. This was just sooo painful. They are supposedly self lubricating after soaked in water for 3o seconds. BS is what I say. I think I may be getting a UTI just from using that cath I am having so much pain today. Great, that means I will likely have to drop off another pee sample tomorrow if the cath sample comes back negative. But I think the catheter may have caused a UTI when I cathed the specimin. NEver again will I let my urogyne have me cath a pee specimin, he will just have to accept the clean catch which is just as good in my opinion.
Thanks Sandy for the info, I appreciate it. I will ask my gyne about the depo-provera.
Jen

Angeles
07-08-2007, 03:12 PM
I do the bottle washing protocol described in that book by A Kilmartin, to me it makes sense to clean up the area after BM if you are subseptible to UTIs.
I think it is a must before sex. If I don't get to the bottle washing I shower as soon as I can. To me it was a life saver.
I don't believe everything I read, I don't belive in the "solution for IC" and antibiotic protocol she describes in her book, but her bottle washing suggestion is a good one...it doesn't have side effects and don't think it'll hurt (how?), on the contrary it may help or at least give you peace of mind. (like the women who take 1 antibiotic pill after sex, sometimes it helps sometimes it doesn't)
Lingering bacteria can be carried to the urethra, just think about thongs (I used to wear them, not anymore:tsk: ), and having sex. There's a reason why women get more UTIs than men.
When the vaginal PH and flora are "normal" we are able to fight bacteria better, when it gets altered by antibiotics, yeast creams, etc, it is a different story.

Tuckersmom
05-07-2008, 02:54 PM
I clean up after each BM with baby wipes, the ones that are all natural. First, I wipe with TP from front to back, then I use the wipes. I only use 1 wipe for each swipe, toss it, and get a new one, until I am completely clean.

Angeles
05-09-2008, 03:53 PM
baby wipes are ok, I use them too, however, they leave a "wet/moist" enviroment and bacteria can move around while we walk, etc.
I recomend washing even after using baby wipes if you have time, of course, and want to be on the safe side. Specially if you get recurrent UTIs or you are sexually active.
I know is a lot of work but this is just my advice.

Also summer is coming so you want to maintain the area clean and dry as much as you can.
Hugs,
:)

Tuckersmom
05-09-2008, 04:02 PM
I left out a slight detail when talking about using wipes: I dry the area with toilet paper once I'm done cleaning with the wipes.

jen74
05-10-2008, 06:00 AM
I always bottle wash and shower after I have a BM. I am meticulous about making sure I am clean down there, I am very prone to UTI's. But for some reason I keep getting te UTI's no matter what I do or no matter how clean I am. I had a UTI in December right before X-mas, and I have one now. That is 2 in a little more than four months apart.
I am starting to think maybe I am being to clean?? Is it possible to get a UTI from being to clean?? I take a shower in the morning and one before bed. I use soap down there, but a very mild one that is fragrance free and only use it on the outside, not the inside of course. I just do not know what to do to prevent these anymore.
I asked my urogyne about cleanliness and if it prevents UTI's and he said he does not believe it matters. He said babies and older people soil themselves all the time and do not suffer UTI's and then he went on to say that the people in thrid world countries live in horrible conditions and never shower hardly or get clean and they do not get UTI's. So I just do not know. Maybe we are missing something that is suppose to protect us somehow.
Jen

SharonA
05-10-2008, 08:26 AM
My doctor told me a long time ago that, because of the sores and irritation of the bladder wall in the GAG layer, that I would be more susceptible to bladder infections. She then gave me a low dose antibiotic. I take one before/after sex or whenever I think I might have come close to bacteria...like after a less than neat BM...if you get my drift. She also just recently told me to take them when I flare.

jen74
05-11-2008, 10:28 AM
Hi Sharon.
It makes sense what your doc is doing. I cannot get my doc to agree to prevenative antibiotics though. He says it is no good to do that. He said that I will grow a resistance to the antibitoic and if I really get a UTI, they will not work. I also am sensitive to most antibitoics. I know they give macrobid as one the the prevenatives, I cannot take that one however due to bad side effects. I am seeing my urogyne this Tuesday and will mention it again to him. I just cannot keep getting these infections. I cannot have sex as it is now due to the IC pain and more so the infection risk. It is terrible. I have done ALL the herbal things and they just do not work so well it seems.
Jen

Angeles
05-11-2008, 05:05 PM
There are many reasons why people get UTIs.
And people "do" get UTIs in third world and developing countries, I've been there and lived 18 years in one.

The key is the following:
Why there are people who get UTIs and people (women specially) who never get UTIs third world country or not???.

I asked that question to my uro and she replied that for some reason, once the bacteria gets in the bladder, is like it remebers how to get there again and again. I thought it was an intersting explanation, but then I thought to myself, well, maybe is the same group of bacteria that we didn't erradicate to begin with at the first UTI(?) or because we use too many antibiotics they get resistant (?). Just brainstorming here.

Another explaination from a doctor, is that many times we think we have an UTIs and it is a flare not a UTI ( I don't know about this one since I can tell big time the diffence).

We also come in diferent shapes and sizes and the distance b/t the anus and the urethra is already very short and from th urethra to the bladder is also short.

Per my uro, any stimulation to the urethra is a possibility of UTI.

With all this, I can only tell you to be clean, whatever method you feel confortable with or works for you. If you can identify your triggers, better.
Also there's a supplement who helps avoid and get rid of UTIs: D-mannose, they sell it in th ICN shop.
Garlic is also a bladder antiseptic (and helps getting rid or bugs)
Probiotics help strenghten the immune system, (Femdophilus, VSL#3 are good brands)

But do not think too much about it.

There's only so much we can do: which is to do our best and the rest is really in God's hand.

jen74
05-14-2008, 05:33 AM
Hi Angeles.
Thanks for the info. That is the weird thing, I already take Dmannose, have been for over a year and still getting the UTI's caused by ecoli, which dmannose is suppose to irradicate, so go figure. It is very frustrating. I also heard about the cause could be because in some women the urethra is closer to the anal area. But that does not fit for me since I got my first UTI ever when I was already 27 years old. Never had one before that. I do find it interesting what you said about once getting a UTI, you are forever prone to them, thinking the bacteria may know how to find their way to the bladder once they have already been there.
I am extra clean, and not sexually active. The only thing I do are instills once a week, in a very sterile way. I still think it may be like your doc said, any stimulation to the urethra may make one suseptible to UTI's. Now my urogyne does not agree with that. I went to see him yesterday and I told him about my UTI I have now, and He wanted to do a culture, but wanted to cath the specimin. I would not let him becuase I am on my period. I just think that is asking for trouble. He said it is soooo low of a chance to get a UTI from cathing, though I think it does cause UTI's, as I have had two in the last four months, and know others who got alot of UTI's while doing instills. It is frustrating since instills are all that help me with my pain so I have no choice really. Thanks again for the info.
Jen

Angeles
05-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Have you tried methilene blue (sp?) is an active ingredient in prosed (the urinary anesthesic by prescription), it is really what makes the urine "blue". This ingredient has an antibacterail property. I'd use it to prevet UTIs than to cure it.

Maybe you should change your Dmanosse brand.

I personally don't like the idea of inserting anything in the bladder (like bladder instillations) I like more the theory: "leave the bladder alone and do not mess up too much with it"...So I prefer oral treatments, diet etc.
Again, there are tons of women who get better with instillations.

I have the hunch you have a bacteria that is still hanging in there. You shoudl get a culture to identify the strain and take the right antibiotic.
Do a 'clean catch' with the first urine in the morning (the one which is more concentrated and take it straigh to the closest lab), a diluted urine may not show squat. You have to plan this ahead: get the sterile cup and order for complete culture from your doc.
See what your dr has to say. You may need to be in antiobiotics for a while if that's the plan for you. I know women who had good results taking this route.
We react differently to antibiotics and if you start taking strong probiotics you can help balance things out since the antibiotics kill the good bacteria in your body.
Good Luck!

jen74
05-15-2008, 06:16 AM
Hi Angeles.
I cannot take the urelle stuff ( the stuff that turns your pee blue). It is an antichlorenergic and it will mess my stomach up as antichlorenergics slow the gut down( I already have digestive issues) and do not want to make that worse.
I went to see my urogyne the other day and he wanted to do a catheterized specimin and I refused to let him do that, especially now that I am on my period. He does not believe in clean catches. He said the urine is to many times conatminated. I dont buy this, but we just do not see eye to eye on this. I think it is absolutely silly to have to catheterize to leave a urine sample. It is bad enough I have to cath to do the instillations, but I at least know I am being very clean and sterile before I do it.
As far as leaving a first morning sample, he will not give me a form for the lab to do this, I asked once. They say I have to do it there in the office, and he wants a catheterized specimin. It is so ridiculous really. I wish we would see eye to eye on this, but we dont. He is such a great doctor otherwise. He is very knowledgable about IC and willing to try different things. As far as oral meds go, I do not take them becuase I am very sensitive and have ALOT of reactions to all meds. This is why I do the instills, and because so far they are all that have helped me with the pain.
When I went to see the urogyne, he said that he thinks I likely got rid of the infection already anyhow, that I am just irritated from having the UTI. He gave me more of the antibitoic I was on, but it is making my bladder reallly irritated. I am just going to quit them if things do not settle down by tonight. Then I will call my regular PCP and see if I can just get another culture done to see if indeed there is any bacteria or is this just a after effect from the UTI. Thanks again for the info. I just am at wits end.
Jen

MarthaF
05-16-2008, 10:33 AM
I have posted under the "Antibiotics" thread about the fact that they now know more about recurring UTIs. Dr. Scott Hultgren's lab at Washington Univ in St. Louis is one of the foremost labs for UTI research in the country. They found the E. coli form "pods" of intracellular bacterial communities several years ago, and recently published an article saying they now believe they are biofilms:
http://mednews.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/10746.html

Biofilms are the way bacteria evade detection and treatment and can be found throughout nature and within our bodies (BV can be a biofilm infection). There is no known way to treat or penetrate biofilms and that will be the next challenge for scientists. I know many are working on this already. If the lab is right then the bacteria can be emerging from the biofilm to cause another infection and the degree of cleanliness really does not affect this process. There is still much work to be done and we have to hope this lab will figure out a way to break up biofilms so the bacteria can be treated. Or come up with vaccines to prevent the formation of biofilms.

Also, are you sure that you are dealing only with E. coli? UTIs can be caused by many different types of bacteria. Out gut is full of bacteria which can move from the rectum to the vagina and then to the urethral and bladder. FemDophilus is a good probiotic since it populates the gut and vagina with protective lactobacilli. These prevent the bad bacteria and yeast from adhering to the wall of the vagina.

I've also posted about using a broth culture to be sure of what kind of bacteria you are dealing with. The routine culture is good at finding E.coli but the broth culture can find many more types since it is designed to encourage the growth of some fastidious bacteria that are slow growing. The broth culture is allowed a week to grow. (unitedmedicallab.com)