Marijuana-derived drug suppresses bladder pain in animal models

[icnmgrjill]

AUA Update -

The annual AUA conference is currently underway in Atlanta and our correspondent is attending... and will be writing some great articles for us. Yesterday, a press briefing was held on IC as well as the IC poster sessions, where all of the new research is presented! I'll be posting some highlights as they occur.

ATLANTA, May 21 – IP 751, a potent synthetic analog of a metabolite of THC--the principal active ingredient of marijuana--effectively suppresses pain in hypersensitive bladder disorders such as interstitial cystitis (IC), according to animal model study results presented today at the annual meeting of the American Urological Association.
IP 751 is a potent anti-inflammatory and a powerful analgesic, although the mechanisms by which it works are unknown. However, since the drug is insoluble in water, its administration directly into the bladder is difficult.

For the study, researchers at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine addressed the hydrophobic properties of IP 751 by introducing the drug into a liposome, a tiny sac surrounded by fatty acids, allowing for the drug to be introduced directly into the bladders of rat models of varying degrees of bladder inflammation. IP 751 significantly suppressed bladder overactivity in both animal models. Bladder overactivity is the underlying cause of irritation and pain in the bladder.

"Interstitial cystitis is a difficult disease to treat, and not all treatments work well on all patients," said Michael B. Chancellor, M.D., professor of urology and gynecology at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. "Any new option we can give our patients to alleviate their painful symptoms is very important."

According to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, 700,000 Americans have IC; 90 percent are women. IC is one of the chronic pelvic pain disorders, defined by recurring discomfort or pain in the bladder and surrounding pelvic region. Symptoms vary and can include any combination of mild to severe pain, pressure and tenderness in the bladder and pelvic area, and an urgent and/or frequent need to urinate. In IC, the bladder wall may become scarred or irritated, and pinpoint bleeding may appear on the bladder wall.

[armslee]

That is very interesting. Thanks Jill! It seems as if this website keeps us IC'ers more up to date than some of our doctors on treatment options!!! :elvis:

[Baba Yaga]

armslee, the ICN has been discussing this research for months!

If you hear or read anything about "ajulemic acid," I believe that is the same stuff as IP 751.

Here (http://www.indevus.com/) is the company that owns the rights to market this substance. In case you want to follow developments or even invest. I hope this becomes an available option soon. Who knows how long it will still take for governments to approve it though. I see it becoming available in Canada and Europe before the US.

[Mrs. Burschman]

Wow, did you notice that this company actually lists IC on its homepage as a disease it is working on treatments for? Awesome! We're toward the bottom of the list, but we're there!

Amy (Mrs. B) :bunny:

[toby75]

Marijuana makes very good sense in treating IC. You hear the term "munchies" for people that use it as recreational use, reason being is becuase it numbs your stomach lining, so you never feel "full". Which is another reason it is used for chemo patients for nasuea. If it can numb your stomach lining, it seems it would do the same for your bladder lining.

I may be way off in medical terms of it but it does make sense.

[toby75]

Wendy, that article about IP751 is remarkable and seems to put a lot of focus on IC.

www.indevus.com then click on products then choose IP751 and read the article. There are companies out there that know how much pain IC causes and how many people seem to be afflicted by IC. Great article! All should read this one!

Thanks Jill to bringing it to our attention!!!

[toby75]

sorry I made a duplicate of the above

[ihurttoo]

I am so glad to know that we arent the only ones out there who are looking for things to help with IC pain. I hope that something works out with this and becomes available soon. Thanks for sharing!

[tigger_gal]

I was always was under the understanding that marijuana hurt your bladder.

[plaedes]

Marijuana makes very good sense in treating IC. You hear the term "munchies" for people that use it as recreational use, reason being is becuase it numbs your stomach lining, so you never feel "full". Which is another reason it is used for chemo patients for nasuea. If it can numb your stomach lining, it seems it would do the same for your bladder lining.

I may be way off in medical terms of it but it does make sense.

For me this was the case. It does have a numbing effect that lasts for hours. No, it is not a cure but I have found that there are times when even my normal pain meds didn't touch the pain, but smoking just a little bit of marijuana helped enourmously. The pain returns hours later, but it isn't as bad. Also helps with the extreme spasms I sometimes get with IBS-D. I am certainly not advocating the use of illegal drugs, but sometimes when the pain is that great and constant one finds themselves willing to do almost anything for even a few hours of peace.

[Trishann]

I was always against taken drugs, had no problems saying no thank you. But after taken these RX drug, to be honest with you, I think sometimes they are more harmful for you then marijuana. You be surprise what is in these RX drugs. If they can get the right dose of marijuana to help IC, and it is approved, I would consider it. It is when maijuana is being abused cause harm, but isn't it also with the same thing about RX drugs, if you abuse it, it will be harmful.

Hugs, Trishann

[green_the_fish]

Thank you for sharing this with us, Jill.

I believe that vitually every plant on our planet can be used to serve a useful purpose, and that includes marijuana. Cannabis derivatives are already being used to help those with terminal illnesses, such as cancer, to help allieviate their suffering. Well, in many ways, we are suffering as much as they are. Our quality of life, research has shown, resembles that of a person on kidney dialysis or suffering from chronic cancer pain. The pain caused by IC has been rated equivalent to malignant pain. As such, I believe we should have access to the same treatments, even if the treatments may be controversial.

I'm glad that researchers at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine were open-minded enough to exlore this option.

[tabasco32]

i have some smokers(marijuana)that I live with and am willing to try. But afraid it has to many chemical. but I am getting desperate.
lisa

[justJen]

lol right on

[meme]

I'm going to admit here that I used to be a user, and now am strongly against it. To say that marijuana is not addictive and a gate way drug is a lie. I haven't touched it in nine years and I still get cravings, and I was just a social user. Like all drugs it has side effects that can be more damaging than they do good, I half-way blame it for the occasional ahsma flares I have, a friend of mine had this too after using. In the times I used it I never noticed it affecting my IC, but then again I wasn't looking for it to. If somehow doctors could control the substance I would be all for it, but in the mean time please don't try it on your own.

[justJen]

lol right on I didn't mean like go out and try if you haven't before. But it does sound like an interesting alternative.

[tabasco32]

no i've tried it before that's why i was interested. burns my throat though.

[gypsyjoy]

I never thought I would smoke cannabis again...until I got IC. Well, in this state you can get it legally and I do. It may be against federal law but I can still get a prescription and can buy it at a reasonable price. And it is organic..God put all planets here for a reason.
gypsy

[tabasco32]

my grandma use to put marijuana in alchohal for her leg pain she was diabetic.
do you think if we rub this around our bladder area the alchohal and marijuana it would make it go away for awhile?

[hiphuray4peas]

THC numbs the lining of your stomach... thus the whole munchies phenomenom... and (I'm guessing here) they're trying to use that property to numb the lining of the bladder. I believe the concept behind instilling the drug is to avoid the high.

[tabasco32]

I' mean rub it on the outside pelvic area where your bladder is maybe it will soak in and take pain away from nerves around your bladder. should I try it?

[hiphuray4peas]

I seriously doubt that'd be worth it... considering it doesn't work transdermally. But I'm not expert... science makes advances doing funny things....

[irishnan3]

Like with any drug smoking pot can become addictive. That is something we all have to keep in mind. In my opinion I think I would rather use something that grows from the earth then the man made drugs we all use. I have been on Vicodin for over a year now and I hate taking it. When I first started I use to throw up from it. Now I take it with no problem it doesn't even effect my activity. It use to knock me out. To me that's scary!!! I wouldn't like to smoke it, but I'd sure try it in pill form....At this point I think I would try anything. The pain is just to much:cussing: Keep posting any info that come along PLEASE.....

[DoulaSue]

I would actually prefer cannibas over other types of pain medication. The fact that it's all natural, and a recent study shows it does NOT cause lung cancer, makes it a good option. The thought of walking around stoned doesn't thrill me, though, so I'd only do it at home under close supervision of my husband, LOL.

[Angelhrt]

It has been years since I touched the stuff, but recently due to my pain, I asked my sister for a drag on hers. Amazingly, I had an appetite and the pain subsided. Especially those spasms. My husband hated it whenever I smoked because he doesnt do those things, but if I am in pain, my husband will ask me, do you have any marijuana? If I say no, he will try and get me some. That is how much more improved I am when I smoke it. It also helps with the depression, very much. I am easier to deal with and much calmer. If it helps for cancer patients, why cant it help for us. I am already taking other narcotics, i.e. Morphine, oxycontin, percocet, tramadol. So what is the difference?

[Angelhrt]

Like with any drug smoking pot can become addictive. That is something we all have to keep in mind. In my opinion I think I would rather use something that grows from the earth then the man made drugs we all use. I have been on Vicodin for over a year now and I hate taking it. When I first started I use to throw up from it. Now I take it with no problem it doesn't even effect my activity. It use to knock me out. To me that's scary!!! I wouldn't like to smoke it, but I'd sure try it in pill form....At this point I think I would try anything. The pain is just to much:cussing: Keep posting any info that come along PLEASE.....


Marijuana is grown from the earth, God put it here as an herb for pain, depression and who knows what else. But when man found out about it, they began adding other things to it. Things that may make you addicted or sick, or get headaches. My mothers boyfriend grew his own and it was natural to smoke it. You could actually tell the difference from the man made stepped on, from what the earth produces. Think about cocaine, it was made from the earth too, and when man found about it, they changed it and made it horrible for people using it. But before it was found to ruin lives it was not illegal. Marijuana has to be good for something, many cancer patients will swear by it. Medical marijuana isnt actually stepped on. I believe that scientists need to find what it is in Marijuana that helps and make something out of that. All of the other pain meds are addidictive, morphine, vicodan, tramadol, oxycontin, oxycodone, so we cant knock the marijuana. I smoke it whenever I am flared up and feeling nauseous or when I get those bladder spasms. It is not an everyday occurrence. I treat is just like the other pain meds I am on. As an "as needed basis".

[cottencandy]

I've been a very occasional pot smoker for about 4 yrs now, but stopped when I started getting health concious.

I smoked up recently again, even though I thought it would harm my bladder (because I thought it would be similar to cigarettes) and it totally took the pain away for a good several hours. Even a little bit really helps so that you can still function like a normal person and don't have to be in constant pain.

I'm from Canada, so the legality isn't really a huge issue, most people I know grow their own so they don't have to deal with weed possibly laced with something. I would recommend pot if you need something for the pain. I'm against synthetic drugs because I honestly believe they will do more harm then good, and as far as I'm concerned weed has no serious side effects.

It's difficult to get addicted to it physically, but watch out if you are getting psychologically addicted. Take it slow, because you'd be surprised how far just a little bit will go.

Good luck!

[irishnan3]

I have been in lots of pain for the last few days. My Uro/Gyn called me and I asked him about smoking or taking a pill form of cannibus. He laughed when I asked said he will investigate it and let me know what he thinks. He is one of the best doctors in the Pennsylvania area so I value his opinion. I will keep you up to date.

[tabasco32]

Okay

[Ascending]

I've been a very occasional pot smoker for about 4 yrs now, but stopped when I started getting health concious.

I smoked up recently again, even though I thought it would harm my bladder (because I thought it would be similar to cigarettes) and it totally took the pain away for a good several hours. Even a little bit really helps so that you can still function like a normal person and don't have to be in constant pain.

I'm from Canada, so the legality isn't really a huge issue, most people I know grow their own so they don't have to deal with weed possibly laced with something. I would recommend pot if you need something for the pain. I'm against synthetic drugs because I honestly believe they will do more harm then good, and as far as I'm concerned weed has no serious side effects.

It's difficult to get addicted to it physically, but watch out if you are getting psychologically addicted. Take it slow, because you'd be surprised how far just a little bit will go.

Good luck!


I also am from Canada - the province that is known for it's homegrown pot.

After 26 years of living with my ex-husband who grew his own and smoked it varaciously I can absolutely assert there was a physical consequence to not only him but me as well.

Within 10 minutes of him smoking a joint I would be asleep - he thought that quite funny actually.

I would wake up with a pot hangover - not a word of a lie on that one.

His indulgence also very much enabled him to not partake in physcial relations with me - he did it to me on purpose.

After 26 years of being understanding, compassionate, very conscious of not making him feel bad (re: Macho image) for having erectile dysfunction - so not asking.....guess what!!!

He didn't have erectile dysfunction at all - it was his over consumption of pot.

The smell of pot and the smoke it creates makes me absolutely sick to my stomach.

I too have a friend that has multiple types of cancer and he does smoke it for his pain however his use has esculated over the 7 years he has had cancer.

It allows for "vegging out" - which when you are depressed - can be a very very tempting way of getting thru your days.

If they can pill form the beneficial aspects without the negative side effects I would at least try it.

[DoulaSue]

In the words of Willie Nelson, who has smoked pot every day for many, many years "I could either smoke a joint every day, be addicted to pain pills, or be a raging alcoholic". Apparantly, he chose pot as it is least harmful to the body, and least affected his mood negatively. Everyone needs to make their own decisions as to what works best for them, I just wish that there were more studies done as to the effectiveness/safety of pot, as it seems like a very viable option for many people who react badly to pills and who truly need good pain relief.

[irishnan3]

DoulaSue: I think I agree with Willie. lol All kidding aside I know some young people who smoke because they don't want to use antidepressants. My nephew is 25 and he told me he takes 2 hits in the morning and 2-3 in the Evening after dinner. It has a calming effect for him. I'm starting to talk myself into trying it. the only think is I have Asthma and the thought of smoking anything make me choke......

[icnmgrjill]

Here I am writing an article on pain management in IC and I came back to this thread to look at the research... but I really appreciated the comments that so many of you have offered. Living in California, it is available for medical use and, like many of you, I also have a couple of extended family members whose lives were virtually destroyed by smoking pot and then moving on to other drugs. I think it all comes down to intent. If medications are used so that we can be functional and do our daily lives, i.e. like work or shop or attend church, we're using them correctly. But, if we're using medications to escape life and to avoid responsibilities.. then that's the sign of addiction and other serious life problems.

Just a thought.

Jill

[Trishann]

I wish they would find the right amount that can help IC, so it can be legal. For the purpose maybe the side effects won't be so bad. But I do agree with Jill about drugs. Taking RX drugs for pain so you can have some kind of life, I can't see what will be wrong with it. But if it is use for avoiding life and to escape it, that is when it becomes dangerous.

Maybe someday there will be a RX that won't be so hard on our bodies. I never did like taking drugs period. But when pain came alone and caused me not to be able to function or not having any kind of life, that is why I started taking it.

I don't like it at all, but at this time, I really don't have an option. That is what stinks. Maybe someday there will be an option, just can't give up.

Hope you all have a nice day, Trishann

[MakinIT]

Funny..I remember bringing this up a few years ago on this site and was ixnayed off. Interesting concept of putting it into the organs...it acts as do all pain meds..opiads that is...there are THC pain receptors in your nerves and when you smoke the heathen weed, it blocks the receptor...(in biology it was explained like a key and lock for any nerve across the receptor space) Anyway...opiad drugs are the same...(morphine, hydrocodone...ect..) Anyway, there is a wonderful documentary called GRASS and it goes back to the late 1800's and the history of weed in the US.

BTW if you have Asthma i strongly recommend you don't use it because it will cause massive burning and coughing until you are used to it. (um...I'm still a weenie about it) I have asthma and take singular, advair and have my inhaler if I need it. Oh and if you are used to using an inhaler and you try the MJ in a Bong, DO NOT inhale like you would on an inhaler. You will cough a lung out. Just a little hint.

OK...What I'm trying to say is you need to do what you can to help your pain. I think the coorelation between people who smoke pot and move onto meth or other hardcore drugs is spurious. Kinda like saying all people who drink milk will move onto alchoholism. Like...I know people who smoke pot for a few years, stop for a while, and start for a while, stop again...forever...other people who go on forever to other hardcore drugs. I'm just frustrated with this because I used to work with a woman who was so anti drugs, but she would get hammered over weekend and lecture me on how bad one bong hit would be when I was in such pain. (before I Dx/d)

Anyway...my 1 cent.

[aiditacar]

I'm too from canada and is very easy to find ,I tried it once and made me so paranoid I will not do it again, it felt weird and out of control but if my pain is severe and mariguana is llegal in a pill form I would give it a try.:woohoo: We all are getting desperated:cussing: :toilet: :loco:

[plaedes]

I just wanted to mention for anyone with an OPEN mind about this subject that marijuana is not physically addictive, but for certain people can be psychologically addictive. Any drug that changes your mood or makes you "feel good" can be an addictive drug. This holds true even more so now days with Rx drugs. I come from a long line of addictive personality types and all of them are currently abusing some type of prescription be it hydrocodone, muscle relaxors or things like xanax and valium. I have smoked marijuana off and on for half of my life and I have also quit with no reprocussions. For the first week of quitting I may have difficulty going to sleep, but other than that....nothing. I have managed to not be tempted into harder street drugs and I don't think that is going to be a problem for me now. However, all of us need to be aware of our own bodies and personal addictive histories. Marijuana is a wonderful drug that should be legalized and marketed for pain management as well as anti-anxiety medication. With proper research there is no telling what all it could really help. If i leave myself unchecked alcohol and prescription pain killers could be a big problem for me, because it is so much harder to leave it behind when the time comes. I am not suggesting that everyone with pain should smoke marijuana. I am just stating that it has many good qualities and possibilities as a drug. It is also a lot less harmful to the body than many of the drugs currently prescribed for pain and anxiety. I have tried Ambien, Atarax and Elivil all in an attempt to have something legal that allows me to get some sleep and all of them had negative side effects that the marijuana doesn't have. I have tried a couple of different prescriptions for anxiety and these too had negative side effects such as migranes, wanting to commit suicide, and other weird sensations in my brain. These meds. were supposed to calm me down and allow me to have a "normal" life, but failed to even come close. While smoking marijuana I have no problems sleeping, I have no migranes, no weird sensations in my brain, when I am stressed I can more easily cope and move on instead of obssessing, my temper is more under control, my stomach doesn't hurt to the point of preventing me from eating, my bladder pain is such that I can move on with my day instead of wanting to curl up with a heating pad and do nothing. In short, it helps me more than it hurts and I don't think that just because of the stigma it has been given by our government in the past should keep people from responsibly using it. The key term there is responsibe! If you are an addictive type that cannot use drugs responsibly then you shouldn't use it or any other drugs that may be possibly addictive. In this day and age I wish you luck with that.

[MakinIT]

I agree with what you say Plaedes...you need to know your own body. But if you have an addictive personality (through the genetics of your DNA) you have to move carefully. I certainly would never smoke a J walking down the street or in front of my kids.:tsk: Although my older daughter, the walking black and white personality in our family, knows that occasionally I use and my husband will join me. (helps him relax and I don't get paranoid feeling like I am the only one) She was horribly freaked in the beginning but she now is very mature and understanding. She doesn't like it though if she sees that her dad wants to go somewhere so she insists on driving him to the movie store or whatever. She's a good kid. (No she's not the parent...she definately is very much a teenager who procrastinates on her homework, throws fits when her blowdryer breaks down (this morning..my wakeup call!!!) and is gone alot with her friends. but she also enjoys hanging out with us) She is actually a very grounded kid and doesn't do anything that could be frowned at. As she puts it she has nothing to write teen angst about in her classes. (My youngest, on the other hand....:rant: .)

Has anyone ever seen the documentary I referred to above? You should Goggle it..."GRASS" Woodie Harrelson narrates. Absolutely awesome. Very political the reasons it is not researched or legalized. And speaking of walking down the street smoking a J....I lived in Fairbanks AK one Summer in the 80's. I was in my late teens. First time away from parents. People DID walk down the street smokin' J's and Even drank in their cars (not soda pop) I almost died. A girl who lived there came by to pick me up for a night out and I was drinking a beer..She told me just to bring the six pack to drink on the way to this funky bar aways from town. You shoulda seen my jaw drop.

Fun times but definately stupid and crazy.:loco:

Take care you all...I wish you the best in pain relief...and if there is a call for volunteers in this study for the placement in the organ? I'm all for it.:woohoo:

[mellusk]

I really cringe reading some members comments in reference to their own or others' negative experiences that then go on to preach the ideology that it must just be horrible all around for everyone. I imagine I'd experience quite a backlash if I said no one should ever take prozac because I've watched someone close to me almost be destroyed by it. I've straight-up have friends who were crackheads who didn't scare me nearly as bad as my boyfriend did when he took antidepressants - but I would never, ever dream of stating that they are horrible and nobody should ever use them. Watching him come off of them was every bit as horrible as watching a heroin addict come off of smack like what you might see in the movies - horrible shakes, sweating, he completely stopped eating and sleeping for two weeks, and frequently vomitted. I can probably be assured that no one has ever watched a person who smoked pot alone go through that - yes, maybe coke heads, or meth fiends, but I promise no one who only smoked pot has ever had those reactions (unless they had perhaps some form of medical condition).

What I'm saying is, regardless of the negative effects that some people experience with any substance, you cannot make a blanket, over-generalized statement condemning it for everyone. I have a lot of friends on a variety of medications, and I have a lot of friends who take a variety of recreational drugs. I can say sincerely that pot has had the least amount of horrible affects on either group. The people who did smoke pot, and for whom it was a "gateway" drug, are also people who just as easily can go to a store and buy perfectly legal alcohol to drink until they can't stand - and they do. Furthermore, "pot smoker" does not = "loser." A good deal of my friends who do partake in this are well-adjusted and successful citizens with careers, families, and goals. Some of my friends are not, but their problems aren't that they smoke pot - their problems are that they have pre-existing issues that affect them negatively, and drive them to seek out psychotropic substances to compensate for their shortcomings.

I just would like everyone to keep that in mind before they make prejudiced judgements about something we've all more-or-less been brainwashed to malign. It's not good for everyone, but it's not bad for everyone, either, the same way anti-depressants and other medications are or aren't.

[Angelhrt]

Ya know, I was criticized when I mentioned smoking pot and my thread was erased. Just because I said that I did it for pain & relaxation and so that I can eat. I was told that I was a bad influence and that IC'ers do not need that kind of advice and if I were to stay on here, I cannot represent such things. Phooey!! Now I come back after so long and see this! Unreal. Vioxx killed hundreds of people. Vicodan continues to grip most of those that touch it, and morphine, dont even let me go there. GIVE ME A BREAK PLEASE!!!!! If you are able to become addicted to a drug, be it a street drug or prescription drug, then you are of an addictive personality. I have smoked marijuana for years, stopped with child bearing, began, stopped because I wanted, started again...etc. Now, I smoke when I get home from work to relax my aching body, instead of taking a morphine or oxycodone, which will eventually knock me out and not allow me to cook for my 4 kids and get them ready for school. I am a literal zombie on those meds and only take them if I began to have spasms. I have stopped taking that Amitriptylene because I could not function the next day or wake up in the morning. And once my body became used to it, they uped the dose, which sent me back into zombie land. I dont take the morphine and oxycodone because it stops my bowels up for days, which then puts pressure from my full colon on my bladder and causes me severe spasms. Go figure? They dont know what causes IC, they dont know how to cure IC, they dont really know what flares every particular person, yet they have us all on these darn drugs. I dont take my Elmiron anymore either and I still feel the same as if I was taking it. I dont take the ATarax either because that made me higher than an astronaut. I take nothing except my tramadol for pain. When I went to my doctor to get more pain pills, she was not there and another doctor took her place. I asked for morphine for the late night, early morning spasms and he said, "I dont usually like to give narcotics...are you addicted?" I wanted to spit in his face!!!!! You see what people think of you because you want not to endure pain. I just left. Went home and smoked to relax, (anti-depressant), eat (appetite helper), and get the kids ready for bed (able to cope). I am not promoting marijuana for anyone who does not do it. I have friends that think the sky is falling if they take it. It is not for everyone, just like most of the drugs that the government supplies us with today. Not all that stuff is good. I was listening to the Michael Baisden show about how the government are drug pushers, yet they illegalize marijuana, which doesnt have the effects of the drugs they have us on. As long as they are making millions of dollars a year on treating pain, disease, etc... they are never going to legalize it, but will continue to let us take their narcotics. You be your own judge, and I will be mine.

[mellusk]

Realistically, I can see why moderators would not want a thread suggesting pot-smoking as a possible tool against IC. It could be a massive liability and misconstrued as an official position of the IC Network or an endorsement, which, in turn, can cause a lot of headaches and complications for ICN organizers. It's a very valid concern, too, given the sort of hysterical attitude we're taught since we are kids to have about this sort of stuff. A person can include all the disclaimers and caveats into a well-intentioned and thoughtful post, but if the wrong person catches whiff of it and calls in the witch hunters, then we could all potentially lose what's a very valuable resource to us all. It is sort of like a creepy "1984" sort of situation, because it definitely acts as a free-thought dampener, but it's a fact of our existence in the meantime with the current political and social climates. I wouldn't want any of the incredible people who have provided us with this site to be held liable.

[ICNDonna]

The IC Network cannot and will not discuss or promote the use of illegal drugs under any circumstances. To do so could result in legal liability. If you do not agree with the laws, please write your congressional representatives, or your elected representatives at the state level.

I will now be closing this very old thread.

Donna