Greatly helped by innovative antibiotic treatment.

[Allibeth]

I want to preface my spiel about my treatment by stating that IC is a catchall phrase -- i.e., it is can be caused by many different things (infection, chemical exposure, etc). Culturing techniques are not perfect (especially the traditional 2-day agar plate colony counts), so a "negative" culture may actually be a false negative. (I went to a "special" lab to get my culturing done -- the labs in my insurance network were not specialized enough to do the kind of culturing techniques I needed and I kept getting false negatives. I never would have known these were false negatives if I hadn't gone for more sensitive and precise culturing that produced a positive result.) Also, infection is not always easily penetrated by antibiotics -- especially short-term oral antibiotics (and antibiotics can burn an IC sufferer's bladder lining, so even when it is working the patient may think it isn't because of the pain). Sometimes it takes the better absorbability and high doses (since it bypasses the GI tract, you can give higher doses with IV than with oral antibiotics) of IV antibiotics to penetrate the bacteria (which may produce polysaccharide biofilms, making antibiotic penetration difficult -- if not impossible -- with oral antibiotics).

I've been an RN in Manhattan for several years so knew Attila Toth, MD's reputation for some time. Anyway, after about 7 years of my sister going from MD to MD where she lives (Florida) for vulvodynia/lichen sclerosis (confirmed with biopsy)/bladder urgency and frequency and being told her problems are not caused by infection, she made the trip to see Dr. Toth in 2000 and had uterine/bladder antibiotic/antifungal irrigations x5days, IV antibiotics x10days, oral antifungal medication and intravaginal antibiotics (I call it the "attack by land, sea, and air" approach). Afterwards, she felt totally normal for the first time in years. It's been 5 years, and she still can have pleasurable sex and sleep throughout the night. Her sclerotic vulval skin is actually supple again. She told her story on various portals and now knows many people with similar symptoms that have been helped by Dr. Toth's treatments. So, when I was diagnosed with IC in 2003 I saw Dr Toth -- after trying some of the more conventional treatments. I wish I hadn't delayed Dr. Toth's treatments as IC hit me hard and fast -- within months my bladder was half its normal capacity, and I had to go on disability from the pain. I tried many types of bladder installations (excruciating for me), Elmiron, restricted my diet, and was using tons of lidocaine. Then I finally saw Dr. Toth, and after 10 days of IV antibiotics, bladder irrigations with an antibiotic cocktail and antifungal medication followed by Flagyl gel inserted into my urethra, and intravaginal Flagyl I'm better. As my sister before, I posted this info on portals and have since met others that have seen Dr. Toth and have greatly benefitted. Many with IC also have paraurethral gland (analogous to the prostate gland in males) involvement, so he directly injects these glands with antibiotics when necessary. I know one woman that had terrible pain in her pelvis that radiated down her leg for 3 years, and after these injections she's better. Dr. Toth also treats spouses when indicated.

I contacted Dr. Toth recently, as insurance often won't cover the full cost of his treatment and I know his fees can be prohibitive to some. He offered significantly reduced fees to people with IC. If people have questions about my treatment or questions about coming to Manhattan (hotels, etc), please contact me. Also, Dr. Toth has a book that describes his treatment -- I've seen it for a few bucks used on amazon.com (his Website is geared towards couples with infection-caused infertility -- that's his main thing. But the same treatments have been shown to help people with infection-caused IC so don't let the emphasis on infertility scare you away).

Of course, I'm just one person with a story. If anyone is seriously considering seeing Dr. Toth but wants to hear from more people with IC that got his treatment, I can forward your email to others.

Hugs, Allibeth

[pottywoman]

Sorry, but I don't believe this. First if he came up with a cure for IC it would be broadcasted on the news and such. Plus other doctors could do the same thing in their offices and a person would not have to travel to him. I'm sorry but I've read way too many "cures for IC" things and I just don't believe it. Have seen about this posted on other sites. Plus IC was not an infection but the bladder lining damaged so I don't see how anitobotics could help. I just needed to say about this. Too many people post that they had great results with this and that and hardly none post that they had problems. My IC was made worse by one thing I tried which seems everyone else had help with.

[Allibeth]

Let me be clear: there's no grandiose claims about a panacea for IC. I'd like to emphasize that IC is a catchall phrase -- i.e., there are many causes. When the cause is infection -- whether from bacteria, mycobacteria, mycoplasma, or whatever -- the cause is often missed due to inadequate culturing techniques and/or inadequate antibiotic treatment.

Pottywoman, infection is one of the causes of inflammation.

I strongly believe that eventually many MDs will practice the therapies I outlined. It takes a long time -- sometimes decades -- for a treatment to become standard practice. I could bore everyone with the a gazillion stories to support this -- like how the researcher that discovered that most ulcers are caused by a bacteria actually ingested the bacteria to try to convince his cynical colleagues (nowadays it's commonly accepted that h. pylori causes most GI ulcers), or how it took decades for a few researchers to convince the rest of the medical community that inflammation and a strain of chlamydia is linked to heart disease, etc. This slowly-evolving knowledge has changed medical treatment -- people now get CRP tests to check for inflammation with heart disease, and GI patients get an h.pylori test and antbiotics for ulcers -- this was not done until recently.

I come from a family of medical professionals. It never ceases to amaze me how new things are discovered about old ailments all the time, and how often the medical industry has changed its mind with certain matters. It also amazes me how slow change is adapted -- the FDA takes a long time to approve medications, medical associations take forever to revise treatment guidelines (with good reason -- it takes a long time to receive money for studies, then complete those studies and get them published in a peer reviewed medical journal, present data at medical conferences -- it takes time to standardize new treatment protocols). This doesn't mean that the treatment isn't worthwhile.

[icnmgrjill]

Allibeth,

I understand what you're saying... but if you only knew the number of patient stories that we've had that are exactly the opposite of yours... you'd understand our caution. I've never heard of Dr. Toth.... and his approach is certainly aggressive. I, for one, would be far more compelled to learn more if he could produce some research studies that prove infection IS present, since one of the best universities in the world (University of Maryland) spent five years performing the most extensive testing they could searching for bacteria in urine and in bladder biopsy samples... including looking for random fragments of bacterial DNA. Only a few, varied, infections were found in their very large testing sample.

Thus, I have a few questions:

(1) What tests does he use to confirm the presence of any infection? What type of infection is it?? Heterogenous, diverse colonies?? biofilms?? or single pathogens??
(2) Are there any published research studies that confirm these results?
(3) Has he made any attempt to present his therapeutic methods to the IC research community?? Honestly, I've never heard of him and have been going to conferences for years.

After so many years of seeing patients get their hopes up while spending thousands of dollars for untested therapies that did not help...... we have to be cautious!!!

Jill

[Allibeth]

Jill, thanks so much for taking an interest in this. I'm glad you're cautious -- so am I. As an RN for 14 years, I've witnessed my share of medical horror stories. Caution is always good -- sweeping angry cynical "you're 100% wrong" statements are what get to me. It's a little too "Tom Cruise vs. Brooke Shields", which I don't want to get embroiled in. Honestly, I've been reluctant to post more because of how heated things can get.

Dr. Toth has studies -- they are outlined in his book. If you want his contact info please email me -- I don't think I should post it without permission from ICN and Dr. Toth.

BTW, I'm a participant in the EPIC study at University of Maryland. I grew up in Maryland -- my mother worked at NIH and FDA and my father worked at NIMH so I grew up around that research community.

Thanks, Allibeth

[Katrina]

I definatly agree that IC has multiple causes....and I think for some of us we have more than one. My experience so far has been anything that has helped someone has hurt someone else.

Approach things with caution...
Thanks for sharing

[Allibeth]

If Dr. Toth is not known so much in the IC community it's because, as mentioned, his specialty is actually infection-caused infertility (which uses the same treatment protocol). Deb mentions some of Dr. Toth's credentials, which I was remiss not to do. He is affiliated with New York-Presbyterian University Hospital of Columbia & Cornell in New York, which U.S. News & World Report reports is the #7 hospital in the U.S. in this week's edition (#8 in the country for GYN, and #5 for urology). Dr. Toth isn't an isolated MD practicing in the basement of a warehouse -- he has an office off Park Avenue on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, and his clientele includes health professionals (like me) that thoroughly scrutinize medical professionals' credentials and practice methodology.

BTW, I've been to some of those MDs recommended on IC Websites, but only Dr. Toth was able to help me. So if some people are concerned that I was duped by a quack -- well, I assure you that the quack wasn't Dr. Toth in my case.

[Allibeth]

Just a reminder that Dr. Toth is offering a treatment discount for people with infection-caused-IC (even I didn't get a discount last year), and many insurance plans will reimburse for part or all of the bill. This man doesn't need to increase his patient load with IC patients -- he has plenty of infertile couples keeping him busy, his IC offer is out of compassion (and my pleading!) Just didn't want that info to get lost in the shuffle.

[vm]

I've looked at his website and am unable to find links to his research. Can you help me out? There is a research page, but it doesn't look like any of it is authored by him and none of it is related to IC.

[vm]

Yeah, that's the website I was looking at. I didn't see any research on antibiotic treatment of IC - I was wondering if anybody could link me to some of his published work regarding IC.

[vm]

Oh, I thought Allibeth mentioned that he has studies that are outlined in his book. I was hoping it was published work we could all read to find out about the efficacy of his claims in terms of IC.

Is his main stance that a variety of medical problems are because of hidden or other infections? I noticed he feels that infertility and miscarriages can be the result of hidden infection.

[vm]

He has treated some IC patients (and gotten them all well I will add) only because he felt sorry for them.

He got all the IC patients he treated well????? I am surprised he hasn't published more about this since no other doctor can make that claim.

[Allibeth]

VM, Dr. Toth's research is in his book (the book is shown on his Website and some online booksellers). It's for infection-caused infertility, not IC. But the same diagnostic methods and treatment plan works for infection-caused IC. I feel fortunate that I live in NYC and knew infertile people that saw him, otherwise I wouldn't have ever known of him b/c he doesn't advertise himself as an IC specialist. I hope Dr. Toth becomes better known in the IC community, because honestly the so-called recommended IC specialists just caused me more pain.

By the way, the pathogens he found in me were: 2 bacteria, a protozoa, and mycoplasma. Another lab also found the 2 bacteria (and three other labs didn't) -- none of the others found the protozoa and mycoplasma. He also said I have low "good bacteria" and put me on probiotics -- I was totally out of balance and inflammed.

[patricia1]

I agree that IC is and can be caused by multiple things. I for one do not believe that my IC was caused by an infection but instead by abdominal surgery. And I dont think that it is because of our attuides about not wanting to approach different medical treatments. This specific treatment has never been mentioned as a treatment for IC. I do know some have done the antibotic round but not as extensive as what the 2 of you have done. There is a reason the word "caution" is used when talking about this. As with anything new research needs to be done by the person thinking of doing this. I for one would try anything if I thought it would help my IC. But my thinking that my IC is NOT caused my infection I dont believe this would help me and it would be a waste of my time. And I do realize that the FDA takes forever in getting new medicine and treatments out there, but I have never heard of this one and I for one would USE caution in considering this. And believe me I am not one who would not seek treatment as I have the Interstim which IS a very hot and sore topic on here, so I have tried something out of the norm when trying to help my IC...

[ICLori]

Thank you all so much for posting about this. I find all the theories about what may cause or help IC, fascinating.

I have always wondered about a bacterial connection with IC. I don't know what the answer is, but I am intrigued by the theory. I know that one researcher (whose research was never able to be replicated) found some cell-wall deficient bacteria in tissues from the bladder of IC patients. There was an urologist who posted here awhile back (but met with a hostile response and left - I am sorry for any hostile responses you might get in response to your posting here, antibiotic treatment is frowned upon by the majority of people here) who felt that IC was really just an infection that had burrowed deep into the bladder walls and no longer showed up on urinalysis tests. Then there was a study that showed that quite a few IC'ers got better on treatment with Doxycycline - that was an interesting study. So I remember these things, and wonder if there might be a bacterial connection after all, at least in some cases of IC.

I am glad you posted this information. I find it intriguing.

Blessings, Lori

[pottywoman]

If this is a good cure for IC then why has he not told other Uro's about it so they could treat their IC patients? That way no one would have to spend the money for traveling along with paying for this to be done. I think most people could not afford the traveling expenses alone. I know I couldn't. Plus if he doesn't want to start treating a lot of IC patients he could talk to whoever the head person is of the Urological assiciation is. They could spread the word of it also. I told my Uro about this today and he is looking into it. I do know my IC was not caused by an infection. In order to really believe this I would have to see the person before and after.

[Allibeth]

VM, it's my understanding that many infertile woman who see Dr Toth have bladder symptoms and may indeed have IC, even though an MD never informed them "your pain isn't just from a uterine infection -- you also have IC." It's not Dr. Toth's primary focus, so I'm not sure if he's kept track of all the women he's seen with bladder involvement over the years -- you should contact him if you have questions about this (I didn't ask as I already had enough info from former patients -- like my sister -- and MDs I know in NY telling me about his methods to satisy me). Though he may focus on infection-caused infertility, often when a woman has an infection in her genitalia it spreads to her bladder. A lot of people on the IC portals I've noticed have vaginal and vulval pain -- the genital and urinary systems are closely linked indeed, and in my case (and others) have benefitted from the same treatment. That reminds me -- I forgot to mention that I had vulvar vestibulitis and terrible vaginal pain that abated with treatment. I would've jumped out a window if it hadn't resolved soon -- it was that bad.

[ICLori]

I think part of the reason I keep wondering if bacteria are involved in some way with some cases of IC, is because I started out with a bad UTI (confirmed by urinalysis) and although the urine turned up sterile after 10 days of antibiotics, the symptoms never went away. So for me it was like the UTI that never went away. I think our individual experiences tend to color our thoughts and perceptions about IC. In some cases we might all have to agree to disagree, sometimes. But it's wonderful that we are able to discuss theories and treatments, I hope that no one will ever feel afraid to post about something that has helped them, because that is how we all learn, by sharing information. Who knows, maybe this is how an effective new treatment might come about, or even a cure! Wouldn't that be wonderful, if that happened?

Blessings, Lori

[Allibeth]

Patricia1, Dr. Toth uses antibiotics and antifungal medications that have been used for a long time with success for other maladies

ICLori, doxy (as you mentioned), minocycline, clindamycin, and zithromax are great for infections caused by pathogens without a cell wall (like ureaplasma and chlamydia). Some people with autoimmune disorders are helped by long-term daily doses of minocycline (some IC cases may fall into this category) -- it's not known if the decrease in inflammation is because the minocycline fights infection or has other anti-inflammatory properties -- it's a big controversy. The researchers can battle it out -- from a patient standpoint who cares why it works as long as it works, right? I like this article about it: http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/5784

[patricia1]

The only thing about considering that antibiotic therapy might lead to a cure for IC is that for some of us our IC was caused by something other than an infection. Before IC I rarely if ever got a UTI. Some believe that IC can come from trauma to the bladder and many other things including genics and so forth. When I looked over his site he seems to believe that anitbiotic therapy can help many things and that infections cause alot of troubles for different things. I agree with some of the others that if he has found out something and he truly believes he has another treatment for IC it needs to be shared with the urologic community and explored further. I am not discounting this theory what so ever and if another treatment can come about for IC then great, but I dont believe that all IC is caused by infection or that it can be cured by this type of therapy.

[ICLori]

I also don't think there will ever be any one thing that cures all IC - because IC is also PFD, endometriosis of the bladder, tuberculosis of the bladder, undiagnosed infection, injury to the bladder, etc. etc. the list could go on for miles.

I think it's possible though that we may find broad subcategories of IC that respond to one type of treatment or another. I look forward to any progress that can be made - I rejoice each time even one patient gets better.

Blessings, Lori
P.S. Thank you for the link, it was really interesting! I might be unusual, but I just love reading about new theories like this!

[Allibeth]

pottywoman, the way urologists find out about these treatments is by what we're doing now -- patients talking. I'm glad you told your MD, that's a great start. In the 14 years I've worked in the healthfield I can't tell you how many discoveries there have been and treatment regiments revised. Relatively-speaking, so little is known about IC. We're standing here at the beginning.

Dr. Toth is an infertility specialist -- I doubt he'll ever publish studies about IC. A urologist or infectious disease specialist interested in IC will hopefully adapt his protocol and want to take the time to request the funding required to be conduct a study (I know a researcher trying to get a grant to do this now -- there's not a pot of cash set aside for people that want to do IC studies, believe me), write it up, and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal. Most MDs want to just run their practice -- they're not in academia, not into living the life of a researcher -- especially a researcher in a field that doesn't offer much in the way of grants to pay for this research. Dr. Toth doesn't do the double-blind type of studies that peer-reviewed medical journals are usually looking for. Maybe he could get a case study published but it's not the same. He's like most MDs -- he runs his day-to-day practice. But like I said, this is how discoveries happen and eventually treatment protocols are changed -- so spread the word to get a jump start.

Look at the health section in the New York Times and you'll see how often new discoveries are made about old illnesses -- it happens every day. This is fabulous news for people with IC -- let's be open to new ideas because sometimes they're right for some people!

[patricia1]

Allie I do agree that this could be great news for IC and I appauled you for getting it out there for us to consider. I just wish more was known. But I am very happy that this has helped your IC and I can totally understand your wanting to help other patients.

[Allibeth]

Note that I refer to the IC that Dr. Toth helps as "infection-caused IC" -- I acknowledge there are other causes.

I strongly believe that many have the infection-caused variety but are misdiagnosed. Hey, it wasn't until 3 years ago that the medical community acknowledged that chlamydia/inflammation in heart vessels is a cause of heart disease and now that's well-accepted. Had I listened to the urologists I consulted I never would have gotten better (all 3 are recommended on IC Websites). They emphatically stated that I didn't have infection. It's actually my internist that was first able to culture infection with his lab -- he put me on oral antibiotics but they didn't help. So then I saw Dr. Toth -- Dr. Toth's lab found the other pathogens lurking in me and was able to treat me effectively with the land, sea, and air aggressive antibiotic approach.

It sounds like people on this site are very enthusiastic and motivated and I hope some of that energy is put into looking into improving culturing techniques and treatment protocols. I'm signing off for the night -- best of luck to all, Allibeth

[Allibeth]

Okay, I lied -- one last post. I just wanted to say thanks, Patricia. I actually hope that many people with IC do have undiagnosed infections, because we have effective treatment for complicated infection -- IV antibiotics. Finding out from an excellent lab that I have an infection was a huge relief b/c then I knew I could get help.

I went to the so-called best of the best urologists in Manhattan and was misdiagnosed. We need better culturing techniques people -- these dipsticks and 2-day agar plate colony counts run by "culture mills" are for the birds!

[mags]

THis is very interesting. I started getting symptoms of ic after a bladder infection. i had never had bladder infections before though. it's like one day i got one and took antibiotics and it went away and then had ic symptoms! it's so strange!!

[ICNDonna]

I would have to agree that if this OB/GYN physician has found something that significantly helps or cures IC patients, he should share the knowledge with the Urology Association.

Donna

[K9wife]

Is this Dr Board Certified? I have been a nurse for THIRTY years, working directly under physicians in an office, with access to every new medical journal, pharmaceutical update, and "study" that has come about. Too many times to count I have pinned my hopes on yet another Dr who thought they had found "the cure", but I'm open minded and will read into this theory more. here's hoping, but I'm not throwing away my toilet paper just yet.

[Allibeth]

Mags, that's how it happened for me as well. I had sx's and had a positive urine culture, and took Cipro x3days. It must have lowered the bacterial count enough to be asymptomatic for a few weeks -- and then the numbers came back up and hence the symptoms returned and I did another short round of antibiotics. Repeat a few times (this time with longer courses of antibiotics -- 2 weeks or a month, sometimes 2 antibiotics at a time). Then I had a cystoscopy with hydrodistension and glomerulations and inflammation was discovered, and then I started getting treated as a non-bacterial IC patient much to my dismay. But I was like, hey, I have bacterial-IC! Luckily, my internist prescribed daily oral antibiotcs for me (when the urologists-- backed with their studies -- wouldn't) which helped but not enough. I figured that if I respond to oral antibiotics a little, then I'd most likely respond to IV and bladder irrigant antibiotics a lot. Thankfully in my case, my hunch paid off. And Toth found mycoplasma and protozoa as well, so I'm really glad I saw him -- he's a great diagostician.

Donna, perhaps Toth has tried to contact the UA. I've tried and they rebuff me. My mother worked gor NIH and FDA and I had her try as well to no avail. It would be great, since you probably have contacts there, if you could give me the name of someone to contact there and I could say "I got your name from Donna at ICN" -- this may open some doors.

To get back to getting peer-reviewed studies published. I'll tell y'all a little story. When my mother was at NIH in the cancer department in the early 1980s, AIDS research just got a large amount of money allocated to it so some of the cancer researchers jumped ship to research AIDS because that's where the money was at (of course cancer still got a lot of money, but I guess the novelty of AIDS was also alluring and there was less competition to get the $). Also, AIDS looked like a hotbed for future Nobel candidates. IC does not have the money or glory (and what money there is often goes to UM, which I wish would study aggressive antibiotic treatments but their infection studies have not indicated much of an infection possibility -- of course I dispute some of their research methodology). IC also doesn't have the infection-theory researchers so even with money we'd still have a problem -- except for one I know of in Canada that wants to do the IC infection research but lacks funding. She has received some private funding (including several thousand $ from a member of ICN -- I wish she'd reveal herself and get the acknowledgment she so deserves). So for the people that insist on peer-reviewed studies, please write your representatives and NIH that we need more funding for IC research, preferably get a celebrity spokesperson and an annual "IC Bike Marathon", and try to convince MDs/Ph.Ds to study IC (pardon the slight sarcasm). As for me, the scrutinized empirical support is enough for now.

Even if all these pieces fell into place (which they will, but it'll probably take 20 or so years and I'm impatient and feel I have enough information without such evidence), it will take time for MDs to implement them. I don't know any MD that has the portable IV equipment that Dr. Toth uses (though I'm sure they're out there somewhere -- please let me know if anyone knows of these MDs) -- this would be an investment (in learning and $) for MDs -- so we'd need willing MDs. The MD office must also be able to insert a PICC or midline IV catheter, and have weekend office hours for the daily lavages x5-10 days. Currently, most people that get IV need to be hospitalized, or if they live in a place that does home IV it is not a continuous portable pump like what Toth uses -- an IV therapy nurse visits twice/day (which isn't ideal -- you really want continuous. My sister had this bolus-type home IV treatment in Florida before she finally saw Toth). Hopefully my verbose posts have fully explained the process in which it takes to fund, research, publicize, and implement new treatments so you understand even great therapies don't catch on like wildfire (but that doesn't mean they should be discounted)! And it all starts here, with scrutinized empirical evidence.

BTW, infection-caused prostatitis research is ahead of infection-caused IC -- I check out prostatitis websites frequently. They explain the infection connection somewhat well, so I listed some URLs below. Since many woman have (vastly underdiagnosed) paraurethral infection (this gland is analogous to the male prostate), some may find the explainations to the prostatitis websites helpful (and your male spouses may benefit, esp. if they are infecting you and vice versa).

There's an ultrasonic device from Italy that "zaps" antibiotic into the prostate much better than conventional antibiotic delivery systems (supposedly 1000x better), and I heard Stanford might use it with DMSO in the bladders of IC patients (too bad they're not using it with antibiotics, but one day at a time I suppose). Once again, the men are getting the benefit of a new medical device first.
http://www.prostatitis.org/bacterialcause.html http://www.prostatitis.org/shosanti.html -- don't agree with most of this but read point #4
http://www.dshoskes.com/cpclinic.html -- discussed antibiotic use with prostatic massage. Woman can likewise do paraurethral gland massage during antibiotic therapy to improve penetration of the medication. It's similar to draining an abscess while taking antibiotics -- if the fluid is till in there, the medication won't penetrate.

This will by my last ICN post for awhile. Please contact me at allison212@hotmail.com if you have comments/questions. Please refrain from sending angry emails.

Love, Allibeth

[vm]

at the risk of sounding elitist -- I love an intelligent debate, but poor grammar and baseless arguments are too Tom Cruise vs. Brooke Shields for my liking

Were poor grammar and baseless arguments a problem for you here? I don't think that asking for research to support a claim is out of line and hopefully anyone wanting to learn more about Dr. Toth's works would want to see information backing that work, right? That's a lot of hope for a newcomer or desperate and in pain person to hang on one doctor and one methodology that does not, at this point, have the published research to back it. I'm certain you agree that someone shouldn't run off and invest time, money and travel into a treatment that they have only heard anecdotal support for --- as someone shouldn't completely dismiss a treatment b/c it only has anecdotal support for the disease they are seeking treatment for. Investigation into treatments is key.

I love learning about new treatments and new ideas. I also like to see peer reviewed studies. I don't think that is a silly or a baseless argument. And I sure hope you don't get angry e-mails. I agree, that is immature and I would hate to hear that any ICN members would do that. We can debate things without stooping to condescending comments or outright verbal attacks. I also hope that opinions and ideas of those without proper or up to par grammar skills won't be dismissed in the discussion.

[pottywoman]

Allibeth--(but poor grammar and baseless arguments are too Tom Cruise vs. Brooke Shields for my liking. )

How can you say this??? A person who has poor grammer are stupid and should keep their mouth shut???? Plus to compare them with Tom Cruise. What does he have to do with it? I know nothing about you or this so called doctor. How do I know you even have IC or was helped by him???? To say that statement to me is no different then a doctor telling an IC patient to go away. They are a waste of time. I can say you convinced me (after stating that comment) that this is a scam. I will not waste anymore of my time on this and now I am sorry I told my Uro about it. I know when I go back to see him he will tell me this is not true.

[patricia1]

I know for one that my grammer can be poor at best and I would hope that this does not offened or put anyone off. I would like to think that my ICN sisters would still come to my help when I needed it.

I also hope that you do not get any angry emails as I know that can be dishearting and I would hope that we can discuss things without hurting peoples feelings and being ugly.

[vm]

Hey, we love you all here - good grammar or not. ;)

[patricia1]

Thanks Kim much appreciated...!!! ;)

[ICNDonna]

I think this discussion has now served its purpose.

I would discourage anyone from traveling long distances to see a particular physician because someone feels they have the answer. If you are interested in trying this doctor's theory, ask your doctor if he/she will contact Dr. Toth and discuss his treatments. You can then discuss it with your own medical professional and make a decision about trying it.

I did check and Dr. Toth is a member of the American Medical Association, which means that he is a qualified M.D.

I am now closing this thread.

Donna