ACOA issue

[ICyuck]

Hi, I'm not an alcoholic myself but I am an adult child of an alcoholic and so share in the family dysfunction and sickness.

I was the youngest in my family, the "lost child" for those of you who are familiar with the phrase. I was the one hiding in my room, under the bed. The one that you could slap, rape, yell at etc. and I wouldn't say "boo" back or raise my hand to defend myself or tell anyone about it.

Recently, I felt ready to clear the air between my older (by 10 years) sister and myself. She has been pushing for a closer relationship with me, and I've been avoiding her all my adult life because of how she used to slap me all the time (not because I did things wrong but just because she wanted to) and put me down a lot and snap at me/yell at me all the time.

She no longer slaps me, but whenever I am around her, she does snap at me. I know it's not just my imagination (I'm not being overly sensitive etc.) because my husband noticed it too and supports my efforts to bring this subject into the open and discuss it.

I sent my sister a long letter, telling her I was sorry I had avoided her all these years, and also telling her I was afraid of her because of all that had happened. I said that I felt reluctant to be around her unless she was willing to restrain her temper and not snap at me or treat me with contempt. I asked her if she could change how she interacted with me. I told her that if she was not willing to, I felt for my own sense of safety and mental well-being, that I could not visit her anymore.

Well, she wrote back basically accusing me of being 1) a very bad person for bringing this all up and 2) crazy.

She didn't really take any responsibility for the abuse and was not willing to change how she interacted with me. So I felt I had no choice but to tell her that I was not comfortable at this time visiting with her.

Now I'm feeling kind of shaky, etc. I feel like a "bad" person because I finally stood up for myself when it was against the rules for me to stand up for myself. She's not talking to me, my neice (her daughter) isn't talking to me....who knows what my sister told her...

I guess I could just use some support. I know in my head, I had the right to try to change things, to defend myself, and I also know that it was foolish of me to have hoped for positive change. I know that abusers, once they have a victim, almost never change their pattern of abuse - they get too much satisfaction from being abusive. That the only thing you can really do is distance yourself from an abuser. So I know I did the right thing for me, but...it's so hard, after a lifetime of just taking abuse and never speaking up for myself.

Thanks,
Love, ICY

[auntiedeb]

grouphug grouphug grouphug You are taking care of you. That is what Alanon teaches. detach with love and it is hard to do but you can do it. I will be praying for you and your sister. I have a friend at work who is very negative and I had to step away and not talk to her , I just do my work and go home. I need to take care of me. You did the right thing. You are taking care of you. we are here for you. One day at a time, one minute at a time, one hour at a time. grouphug grouphug

[ICyuck]

Oh, Betsie, thank you!

It means so much to me to read your words, I am going to read them every time I get this shaky, scared feeling inside.

Part of me thinks I should crawl back to my sister and apologize for bringing this all up, that maybe I deserved the abuse.

But I just read something at an ACOA site that kind of helped to remind me, most of us ACOA's have this problem of finding it hard to say "no" to abuse just like an alcoholic finds it hard to say "no" to a drink.

This is what helped me realize that what I am feeling is normal for an ACOA and it doesn't mean I was wrong to stand up for myself, that my fear is a "sick" fear instead of a healthy fear.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
ACOA'S frequently stay in abusive situations. Abusers may be parents,
employers, spiritual advisors, lovers, spouses, friends, sponsors or yes,
therapists.

Abuse arises from a sick need, (frequently of someone who was
also abused) to control, vent anger, boost a sick ego, or to stamp out signs
of health, dissension, independence, love, kindness or joy--expression which
the abuser resents or doesn't understand and may thus label as "weakness".

Abuse can produce effects similar to toxic drugs: borderline functioning,
disorientation, loss of identity, depression, false confidence, no
confidence, acted out anger, lying, self isolation, or shame. Other effects
might be: to follow orders as if sleep-walking, (often against one's better
judgment) or even to perceive the abuser as "wonderful", "my protector".

A common response to abuse in ACOA'S is to blame ourselves, often in a
FIERCE Fourth Step: "dishonest, lazy, scattered, procrastinator, selfish,
intolerant, spiritual midget", and on and on. In fact, all of these
behaviors may frequently be necessary, to defend the psyche against further
disintegration, in the face of continuing abuse.

SOME SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS/ALTERNATIVES:

- Listen to your Intuition, Higher Power, Inner Child: suspect that abuse is
indeed happening if you hear rumblings

- Get outside validation that the abuse is occurring (meetings, therapists,
etc)

- Gradually gather awareness and strength to put the abuse down

- Learn NOT to pick up abuse, as an addict learns not to pick up his drink,
his food, his drugs, his work, his anger - one day at a time

- Prepare exit lines ("I have to call Chicago now"), and walk away from any
situation which threatens to become abusive

AS A RESULT, either: - the abuse will stop
- or you'll be asked to leave
- or you'll CHOOSE to leave the situation, for good!

Any of these actions will be a step towards reintegrating your personality
and living freely - and happily.

from A New York ACOA, March, 1987

[vm]

I know that shaky feeling, too. :( I still sometimes get it when I need to set a boundary with someone. I imagine it was that much harder with a family member. kissing

It sounds like you did a good job of taking care of YOU and that you were very compassionate and not aggressive in doing it. I think after a couple of days you will feel better about it. Just try to focus on the fact that you did, in fact, do the right thing for you, and that her reactions are hers. They are her responsibility and her problem.

Then give yourself a big HUG and a pat on the back for doing such a good job of taking care of you. It can be very scary. So scary that some people avoid ever doing it with certain people. Bravo!

[vm]

Here is a good passage talking about this:

Family Buttons

I was thirty-five years old the first time I spoke up to my mother and refused to buy into her games and manipulation. I was terribly frightened and almost couldn't believe I was doing this. I found I didn't have to be mean. I didn't have to start an argument. But I could say what I wanted and needed to say to take care of myself. I learned I could love and honor myself, and still care about my mother - the way I wanted to - not the way she wanted me to.
~ Anonymous

Who knows better how to push our buttons than family members? Who, besides family members, do we give such power?

No matter how long we or our family members have been recovering, relationships with family members can be provocative.

One telephone conversation can put us in an emotional and psychological tailspin that can last for hours or days.

Sometimes, it gets worse when we begin recovery because we become even more aware of our reactions and our discomfort.That's uncomfortable, but good. It is by beginning this process of awareness and acceptance that we change, grow, and heal.

The process of detaching in love from family members can take years. So can the process of learning how to react in a more effective way. We cannot control what they do or try to do, but we can gain some sense of control over how we choose to react.

Stop trying to make them act or treat us any differently. Unhook from their system by refusing to try to change or influence them.

Their patterns, particularly their patterns with us, are their issues. How we react, or allow these patterns to influence us is our issue. How we take care of ourselves is our issue.

We can love our family and still refuse to buy into their issues. We can love our family but refuse their efforts to manipulate, control, or produce guilt in us.

We can take care of ourselves with family members without feeling guilty. We can learn to be assertive with family members without being aggressive. We can set boundaries we need and want to set with family members without being disloyal to the family.

We can learn to love our family without forfeiting love and respect for ourselves.

Today, help me to start practicing self-care with family members. Help me know that I do not have to allow their issues to control my life, my day, or my feelings. Help me know it's okay to have all my feelings about family members, without guilt or shame.

from Melody Beattie

[tigger_gal]

I've replyed to many post on alcoholics and on annv I posted the annv date of my hubbys being sober..every one got wow thats great and congrats... I got squat! hope you all stay sober and drug free
Brat

[dyno]

Hang in there, you took the big step and it was the right thing to do. You will feel better for having confronted her about your concerns.

Brat, I am sure it was not intentional that no one responded to your post. Sometimes as you well know the post can get buried if it is a busy day on here. Please don't feel that you were being ignored. This is not an area I have much input in but the ones who follow this board are ususally very responsive to the post.

Jolene

[vm]

Brat - please PM me if you have a post here that doesn't get answered. I truly missed it, I guess.

[vm]

I just looked at all the topics on this board for the last year and didn't see any started by you, Brat. I am wondering if you mentioned it within another person's post and that's why it was missed. :confused:

[KarenNielsen]

Here is my little bit of 'wisdom' about having an unpleasant childhood - don't know if it will help at all. My parents were druggies, also swingers and party animals so they left us alone a lot. when they were home they fed us drugs. My dad was mildly abusive to me but very abusive to my big brother, and he took it out on me while they were gone, so much that I am rather surprised to be alive and with all my parts. My brother managed to get ahold of his violent tendencies in his teen years, but would certainly never, never admit what he did to me. My mom apologizes, maybe I am supposed to be all sloppily happy about that but actually it doesn't interest me. My dad thinks he did a good job - and the funny thing is, in some ways he did (mom too). There is good and bad in everyone, as well as good things that can come from bad situations. Anyway, he is very obtuse so trying to prove to him he was 'bad' would be futile. Anyway, when my brother (3 yrs older than me) was in his late teens and early twenties, he was kinda a loser, and spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing and lameting his childhood, always trying to figure out WHICH of his parents messed up his life, fluctuating between being hostile to mom and hostile to dad. I watched that as a teen and made a very conscious decision: IF MY LIFE IS NOT MESSED UP, I WILL NEVER HAVE TO WASTE TIME TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO MESSED IT UP. And I made sure my life was not messed up. Now I don't blame anyone, don't have to. I live in the same town as my parents and have an enjoyable relationship with them. I see my bro once a year on thanksgiving. We always get on well. No reason to dredge up that old stuff, I have come to terms with it and hope for their sake they have too, but that is between them and God. I have my peace with God, no need to frustrate myself trying to get 'closure' with these nutty people! My CHOSEN companion is my husband (and I made a good choice), the identity of the rest of my family is out of my control, so may as well enjoy them if possible and certainly learn from them. This reminds me of something a professor once said in nursing school, when we were complaining about the conduct of the nurses on our clinical floor: "EVERY nurse is a role model, some are just a role model for what you do not want to be". Same is true for family - you can learn so much even from their negative behavior. Like how to be a GOOD parent. ICY, I am sure many would disagree with me, but if it was me I would not waste time trying to get my sister to 'own' her behavior. She will own it on judgement day. Enoy her if you can, otherwise avoid her. wink

[tigger_gal]

kim i pmed you:)
Being a wife of an "abusive" alcoholic was not a fun trip. many nights out drunk driving doing god knows what and god knows who! yes all drunks do and it really is usless to tell me otherwise. A night in jail thousands of dollars in fins coumtiy service every weekend an lost his license going on 5 years now has really put a damper on life.. yes I am bitter and angry but not at any moment did I stop loving him... there was nights that I wished he wrapped the car around a tree and kill his self.. there were nights when I was called every godawful name he could think of and wished him dead... but I am not the only one...
I have been to alanon which was a WASTE of my time. the only group that was offered in my area was in a uppty area and I was not in there "click" I tried very hard but I wasnt married to an alcholic, lawyer, doctor, GM rep...... so I was just down town trash to them...
The end result he's been sober 19 months today Dec 1, 2003... he now has hep c and in stage 2 liver disease! My husband will eventually die of this because his chances of response of treatment is very low its the worse type of hep c, and my best friend died of it witing 5 years, and i have to live with the fact that i have wished him dead because at times i hated him so much for being a drunking moron. ok thats my story!
Brat

[ICNJess]

Ohhhhh Brat. :( You and I have talked about this before, so many times, and each time you tell me my heart breaks and my eyes tear up. I wish that you and your hubby didn't have to go through this. :( You know that I am on your side no matter what. Don't give up the fight, I have faith that he can beat this thing. And you're such a wonderful person and wife, with you on his side and the love you share, you can conquer anything.

Hugs and love,
Jess grouphug kissing

[Iris]

Hi Brat, you certainly have been through some very rough times in your life, and come through them with dignity. I have a lot of respect for you, and the way you are handling your health problems, and still give your time, compassion, and support to us all on line in the IC family, you definitely are one of our IC angels. Thank you and hugs to you Brat, Iris kissing grouphug angel

[ICyuck]

Oh, Brat, you have been through hades and back. I am so sorry for the torture you have lived through.

Please, please do not blame yourself for your husband's illness. I am certain when we pray for someone to die (I've done it too) that God understands the pain and sorrow behind what we say and certainly does not cause that person to die. What kind of a God would He be, if he did that?

Illness is unfortunately just a terrible part of life (I know that sounds so trite but it's true) and even if you never had an unhappy thought in your whole life, you would still have IC and your husband would still have Hepatitis.

I am so sorry, too, for what you are going through right now with his illness. I said a prayer for your peace and comfort, that God would hold you during this time and hug you.

Love, ICY

[ICyuck]

Wow, thank you everyone for these wonderful, heartening replies! I feel much stronger now, much better about my decision.

Karen, I hear you about not spending much time trying to get family members to own up to stuff...I gave each family member one shot. How they reacted, determined what kind of relationship I would choose to have with them. This was my sister's one shot.

Because she chooses to continue to be abusive to me, I feel I have no choice for my own peace of mind but to avoid her.

There may be others who are strong enough to tolerate continued abuse, but I'm not one of them. When I am abused by her with each visit, each phone call etc. I feel humiliated, I hate myself, I feel depressed etc. and to be honest I just don't need that in my life. And I do not have the power within me to just shrug off repeated abuse.

But, I am very happy with my own life. Away from my family of origin. My sister is eating herself to death and has been abusive to her own children, and I won't even talk about what she's done to herself career-wise and marriage-wise, my brother sexually abused his own daughter and lost his marriage, is close to being on the street, has a drug and drinking problem (active), my father is a dry drunk who at almost 70 years old still abuses his wife and cheats on her. Shrug. None of those things are my problems, and I don't spend much time at all thinking of them.

I am in a good marriage, I do not abuse substances, I am at peace and finally happy in my life. It took me many years to learn not to tolerate abuse from others, but I have finally come to understand that I am a child of God and deserve good treatment and not abuse.

My taking this step with my sister is just a part of that peace, a part of the strength I am gathering with each year, the strength to walk away from abuse instead of tolerating it.

But it's still hard.

Love, ICY

[vm]

I got your PM, Brat. :) I understand where you are coming from with your hubby b/c my hubby has been in and out of the program for years. He always kept it away from home until last Jan. and then I laid out the ultimatums. He has been sober since and working a very good program. He will give his first lead Sunday night and will begin sponsoring people soon.

I found a lot of help in AlAnon. There were definitely some meetings I didn't care for, but I found one in particular that saved my sanity. I don't go much anymore - but will always go to AA to get the good stuff I need. :)

[Teri]

Cindy~there was a study going on at Beaumont using interferon on Hep C patients and it went very very well. Maybe you could ask Peters if he knows how to hook you up??????

One of my sister's friends went thru it and right now there is no evidence of disease in his liver blink

[tigger_gal]

Thanks all yuo got the nice version of my life with a alcholic.
Teri,
I called beaumont every day untill they finally gave me an appointment with the top hepc/liver dr and he is supposed to start the study this month.. :) I am waiting for the call for orintation. I called the gentleman the begining of november and he told me that he is diffently on the list his hcv levels went up 1 million (with him staying sober the last 19 months) in less then a year....but to keep in mind with his hcv levels rising and the type of hep c he has the chances for response of treatment is low...
thanks again for your support
Brat

icy huggs to you

[ICyuck]

Hi, Brat! I wanted to say I love your icon, it's so cute!

I believe you about the sanitized version. Tell you what, though, those of us who grew up in alcholic homes or otherwise have a lot of experience there, kind of "read between the lines" and may not know the specifics but have a sense of how awful it can be.

I was wondering if I could suggest a group to you, if it would be okay.

You see, my Mom was diagnosed with cirrhosis before she died, so I joined a group because I wanted to learn more about her disease (it was caused I believe by something going wrong during her gallbladder surgery with her bile ducts) and about the prognosis, etc. The group was a yahoo group, named:

Liversupportgroup · a support group for those whose lives are touched by liver disease.

A lady named LiverLiz, who still is there in the group, answered all my questions and I felt a lot of reassurance from reading her posts and understanding more about liver disease. I also learned that in spite of grim prognoses, people can live, and live well, much longer than you'd ever think.

It helped me so much to hear about personal experiences and just to have a place where I could go to ask questions, and maybe that group would be helpful to you too if you have questions you'd like to ask.

Love, ICY

[Dianne]

I would sure take exception to the Alanon is a waste of time statement and hope that won't discourage anyone from going. I wouldn't be where I am today without AlAnon but it's a commitment and the changes don't come overnight. I am an active member of both AA/AlAnon, straight/sober for over 17 years and never missed two meetings a week EVER since the day I attended my first meeting. I always say AA helps me live in my skin and AlAnon helps me live with others. Every good thing I have in life today came because I walked through that door to AlAnon over 18 years ago. I felt totally on the outside and not a part and thought they could never understand me and I could never be like them but I kept going and the magic just took hold over time. I didn't get sick overnight and I certainly didn't get well overnight. It takes time. I didn't have a clue how relationships or life was supposed to work. I certainly didn't learn it in my family. My favorite AlAnon speaker "Mary Pearl" always says "your taking an aspirin (going to AA) won't help my headache" "I have to take my own aspirin" (AlAnon) and that's certainly been my story. It's very common for the non-alcoholic member of the family to have "what about me thoughts?" Why wouldn't we? It's a family disease and the alcoholic getting sober isn't going to help me recover because it's an inside job. My childhood stories are guaranteed to shock the most seasoned survivor but really, they don't have much relevance to my life today although if anyone had ever told me I could not only survive but thrive after what I lived through, I wouldn't have believed it. Not all groups are healthy obviously and sometimes it takes some searching to find a group that one is comfortable in but really now that I'm comfortable with me, it's interesting that I feel apart most anywhere I go now although I don't seek after people that don't want me in their life like I used to. I don't leave with a big blow up anymore either like I used to, I just quietly walk away with as much dignity as I can. It's a process and we all have to find our own way. I just needed to state AlAnon/AA led me to a life beyond anything I ever dreamed possible and thank God I found it before I got IC because everything I learned there about living one day at a time, having choices, continuing to seek out what will and won't help me and not accepting abuse can also mean from the medical community too. If I had made a list of what I wanted in life, I would have shortchanged myself from what I have today. In fact IC is really the only part of my life that isn't working and the AA/AlAnon program taught me how to view IC as just a part of my life and not my whole life. What a gift. One of my AA friends once said at a speaker meeting "you remember when you were a kid how there was that one house on the block, you know the one, where everyone was happy and the rooms were filled with laughter and you'd stand outside and wish you lived there?" Then she whispered "that's my house now." A big chill came over me as I realized, that's my house too!

[tigger_gal]

thanks IC :)
oh Diane I don't ever want to discourage someone from AA or Alanon, my experience was just mine and thats how I felt. Its the only one offered that is close and I had to drive 15 miles for that one. I went 3 times and all 3 times not one person talked to me. I tried to talk to them and they excused themselves and talked amongst each other, they were well dressed (no jeans and I was) and 50.00 hair do's and cars I only dreamed of. please no one take what I said as gosspil there are great groups out there I just got the high class snob section eek

brat

[Dianne]

Only 15? LOL I grew up in B'ham, AL. and we rarely left the city limits so I was blown away moving to Montana where people think nothing of driving 100 miles to dinner. Many of us drive 30-60 miles to a meeting and once I even had to pay $20 to a cab in San Fran. to make a meeting-talk about "going to any lengths-ouch!" But I realize driving for an IC patient is quite another story but seriously, new meetings spring up all the time. There may be 20 more groups since then in your area you might want to consider. The rich part made me laugh because I felt so intimidated by a lady at my first meeting that I took to be "rich" and she just sounded so put together. Later I learned she was living in subsidized housing, etc. and she was certainly "rich" but not in the way I first thought. :) She's 81 now and comes to meetings in oxygen and a rolling walker. I like to tease her about being rich and love to tell the story that I wasn't going to come back because her richness made me uncomfortable when she's there because we just howl over it now. Another thing though that really helped me was ordering AlAnon speaker tapes through the dicobe website. For several years those people I never met became my network of friends. It was fun finally getting to meet Mary Pearl and telling her that after listening to her for years. Or if you change your mind and want a long distance sponsor, count me in :) I have several long distance sponsees which keeps me going being as I can't go all the places and so forth I could before since my IC is so bad now but I can sure use the phone! Anyway no offense taken, just had to share my story.

[vm]

I had been sober in AA 9 years before I started in AlAnon 4 years ago. I had been to an AlAnon meeting years before and did not like it one bit. Did not go again until 4 years ago when I was desperate to feel better. My AA sponsor told me to try several meetings (5 maybe?) before I made up my mind. The first one I went to I grew to LOVE.

It felt awkward at first, but as I went and as I shared I felt more and more a part of the group. Breaking down in tears at one point sped up that feeling of belonging. lmao Volunteering to chair meetings and helping with set up and clean up really helped, too.

I guess the big thing is that there are meetings that won't be a great fit for every one of us. I have certainly found that to be true in AA, too. And sometimes it is just "not time", for whatever reason. But I can find some help in each meeting and I may have to search awhile to find one that truly fits me. :)

[vm]

Thanks. :) AA bred that kind of candor into me, I guess. It is such a safe place to share "brokenness". It kinda extends to some other places for me, too.

[Dianne]

I can sure relate. My first meeting they told me it would only last an hour. I'm thinking "man, I'd just be getting a good start telling you everything that is wrong with my life and especially with "them". I couldn't imagine how this could help me. Then they never asked me to even speak and really no one talked to me except one nurse I knew from work. And in our area we end the meeting by asking the newcomer to please consider 6 meetings before you make a decision and if you aren't totally satisfied, we'll refund your misery. And everyone laughed. What is that I'm thinking! I left thinking it was a total waste of time but I couldn't get out of my mind how happy those people seemed and how miserable I was, so when the next Tues. rolled around, there I was and the rest is history. I ask the AA women I sponsor to also consider AlAnon after they have 6 mos. of sobriety because relationships are what I see so many drink over.

Even with 8 years sobriety I was convinced if "he" would change, I would feel better. One night I was at an AlAnon meeting and it hit me "I'm the one that came with the baggage, not Ron, he came from total normalcy, OMG, it hit me he had never tried to change one thing about me, ever, never, not even a tiny thing." I felt shame beyond words that this wonderful man had accepted me totally and completely as I was. Didn't he deserve the same from me? I went home and made amends for the last 2 years I had been trying to make him change and I never did that again. We have a wonderful marriage now at 11 years but really, I almost demolished it the first year with my control issues. What if I hadn't gone to that meeting that night? As for meetings having their own flavor, yes, there are some I won't go to. There are extremists in every organization and AA/AlAnon is no different. I was invited to speak in another city then I was told exactly what to wear. I said no thanks. I would have worn a dress anyway when I'm a speaker but having them try to control me-I don't control well! And I use the Big Book as a tool, not a weapon. I've seen that done too so I walk a wide circle around groups that function as a cult but overall the program has significantly improved my life.

[vm]

Oh my gosh!!! I cannot believe they told you what to wear!!! eek My jaw would have hit the floor! lmao Wow..........

I so relate to what you said about your husband. Mine was smoking pot during our marriage. He was on again off again in terms of the program, but he kept it away from home when he did it --- or hid it very well from this former pot smoker. lmao

Anyway, I had myself convinced that he was going to screw up our kids b/c his using was making US fight. It was HIM and his dysfunction, right?

Well, one evening he was out somewhere and had called home. I was convinced he had used and was screaming at him on the phone. I look over and noticed our oldest son who was only about 3 at the time. It hit me like a TON of bricks that I would be a MAJOR factor in screwing him up.... Wow. Talk about a lightbulb moment.

I went to an AA meeting that next day and explained a bit about it and said I needed another 4th Step in the worst way. I had done a few in AA, but not yet in AlAnon. Boy, did that 4th Step (and the subsequent steps) help me. BIGTIME! That was the REAL beginning of looking at MY part in it. Not excusing his behavior, but waking up to how screwed up I was!!!! lmao

That was a big turning point for me. :)

[auntiedeb]

wow these stories were good to read for me. I need to get back to my alanon meetings. I miss them. I have so many relationships in my life and you all know the one that I have work with a few co workers are very negative. I need to take care of me and work on me. I need help.